Sniper Country Duty Roster

September 1998

Hi All! I'm new to this game of sniping and just found this site tonight and am learning alot from all the old hands here, Thanks people. Unfortunately ( I guess ). I purchased my weapon a Savage 110FP Tactical in 30.06 before finding out the .308 is the best sniping round. So heres my problem. What would be the best ammunition and optics to use to get around the fact that I have a 30.06 instead of the .308. Any and all help would be appreciated; such as, Anyone know of anyone sniping with a 30.06 round? stats on bullet drop, useful range, etc...
JimmyG <>
CA USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 00:22:08 (EDT) 
EAW : I´ll check with them to see if they have a US importer, if not I´ll help.

H&K SL 6 & 7: Torf we have a gunsmith that works a lot on these and installs all sorts of barrels as well as good stocks. I´ll see if he has a catalog or something. Mail me your snail mail adrress and I´ll relay what I can find.

Bain: do you know anything about a Leupold Laser Rangefinder ? I have asked them via e mail several times and the answers suggest that they are working on something.
Maybe at the NASGW or SHOT ?

My BDU´s and gear are almost dry again after the weekend, time to pack my ruck for the next haul. Hey you Texans, send some sun to mossy green Germany !

Schlachtaxt drei Ende
Torsten <>
Germany - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 02:50:49 (EDT) 

Rick: Thanks again for the mildot info. Do you have a model # for the Tasco binocs that are Steiner knockoffs? I called Tasco and they acted like I was speaking another langauge.

Thanks again to all for your help in putting my rifle together.

Sandy <>
USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 07:54:45 (EDT) 

Jimmy G.
With out starting the great 308 vs. 30-06 debate all over again you don't need to feel you do not have a good sniping round because you have a 30-06 instead of a 308. The old "06" is still a great round and will still hit most things you can see at 1000 yards. You didn't say if you reload or if you will buy factory ammo. If you reload I would use the 168 or the new 175gr. match kings in either Sierra or Hornady.
I've had very good luck with IMR-4064 and Varget in the 30-06. If you don't reload there are several good factory loadings for the 30-06. I think Hornady makes a factory match round.
On Optics you get what you pay for. If you want a tactical scope the Leupold or B&L are hard to beat but they are expensive. Check out the Review section in Sniper Country on the Tasco Tactical it sounds like a good deal for the money. No matter what scope you decide on it should have target knobs so you can dial in you MOAs.
As far as bullet drop, a computer program or a Sierra loading manual will get you in the ball park but you need to go to the range and shoot and shoot all the ranges you will be shooting at and record the data in a book. Once you have your drop you need to go back and do it all over again in the wind because that is what seperates the men from the boys in long range shooting. Hope this helps.

Ok, OK,...No more will I use the "S" word in a negative manner, I don't want to take Gooch's "Evil" title away from him and I was raised to not pick on those who were less fortunate than us (Rem.700 owners) It was good hearing from you anyway. Take care and keep your powder dry!!

Pat <mrbullet>
USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 09:49:35 (EDT) 

Pat a.k.a. Mr.Bullet,
Thanks for the enlightenment, I don't feel so bad now. I did read up on the Tasco Tactical and that seams to be the scope for me, my wife would have kittens if I bought one of the higher priced outfits anyhow.( Ya can't leave'em so ya gotta Love'em ). As for reloading, I was thinking about that, not because I want too, but I live on the "LEFT" coast and live amoung the enemy; who is constantly attempting to usurp my Constitutional rights and I've heard talk of outlawing reloading rigs, ammo and primers etc, etc, etc... here in California. Makes you kinda wonder why the heck I spent 10 years of my life in the military to defend these idiots.
Enough snivelling, Thanks again.
JimmyG <>
CA USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 11:35:39 (EDT) 
To the Gentleman who asked about the Tasco/Steiner Knock offs.....The Binocs you are looking for would be the Tasco Off Shore 36 in 7x50.
Cory <Ranger9>
Panama City, FL USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 12:15:45 (EDT) 
To Johnnie: Thanks for the kind words. I hope you'll share some of your experience with the rest of us.

To JimmyG: I see a few options for you. One, do nothing. There are some great loads for the .30-06 Springfield. (Hathcock's first-tour rifle was a Winchester 70 in .30-06 Springfield -- and "he" did okay with it!) It sounds like you haven't even done any load development yet, so don't get all depressed over (so far) "nothing." Second, and a bit more drastic, have a gunsmith remove the barrel and cut the chamber for .308 Winchester. You'll lose a minor amount of barrel length, but you'd have a rifle in .308 Winchester. As for the magazine... well, it's a long action, and Savage just blocks off the rear portion of the magazine well when they use long actions for short-action cartridges. Any gunsmith could do this for you or Savage could do it for you if you send them the rifle. (In fact, you could send them the rifle and "trade" barrels and have them modify the magazine well. I would think they would do this for you, especially if you haven't shot the barrel yet. It would probably be a minor cost.) Third, replace the barrel with a premium-grade barrel (and modify the magazine well). Really, though, work up some loads first (and don't give up too easily). Then, if all else fails, explore your other options. (And, "Mr. Bullet" gave you some good advice, also. Further, there's a nice "comparison" article on our Articles page, concerning the .308 vs. .30-06 debate.

As for optics, check back through all our Duty Roster Archives. You will find a LOT of scope recommendations. (One of these days, we're going to HAVE to develop a Sniper Country's Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) page, I can see it coming.)

To Sandy: I believe the model Rick is referring to (I've seen it, and know exactly which one he's talking about) is the "Offshore Waterproof Binoculars." In my Jerry's catalog, their are a few different versions, but the "gee whiz" model is listed as "7x50mm w/Improved Compass," part number TASOS541, with a price of $177.50 (dealer).

To Pat: "LESS FORTUNATE???!!!" :-)

To Cory: Thanks for the confirmation on the binoculars (I saw your post just before I entered mine).
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 13:22:12 (EDT) 

JimmyG: I also live here in the Peoples' Republic of California. Don't let rumors of whatever new laws these nitwits are going to pass stop you, get your reloading gear if you want or need it, and get it while you can...

Dave <>
San Jose, CA USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 13:39:38 (EDT) 

Rick: I have a set of the Tasco's you mentioned. I plan on someday doing a review for the site, but it has been a low priority. For what it is worth, they are surprisingly clear and I have actually enjoyed using them for quite some time. The reticle is not made to the standard arty spec. It is not mils. It does work fairly well though. You can range in meters, yards, or feet. 6 ticks on the reticle equal a 6 foot target, so you can even exrapolate form that. At $199 it is worth the money. But if you buy the newer version you will want to install a SportsFlash filter as the ruby red coating is just as bad as the Steiner coating in terms of Bill Board HERE I AM reflection. God forbid you get caught in a flash light beam with either the M19 or the Tasco! Looks just like to evil Gooch eyes gazing out of the dark at you....
Scott <missing that darn Xring...>
USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 14:56:59 (EDT) 
I'd like to second the comments on the 30-06 v 308. The only thing the 308 really has over the ought 6 is efficiency. The accuracy potential of the 30-06 may be marginally less than the 308 but probably not enough to notice for the average shooter/rifle combo. In short, keep what you got, develop a good load and have fun. If it just never shoots up to snuff, dump it or rebarrel it. An easy way to tell right up front if the thing will shoot is to go buy some Federal GM in -06. I think it is still available. My buddy's stock M78 Sportsman would print about .9" on a good day, worse the rest of the time. If you can get down to .7 or so with the factory rig and this ammo, smile. From my experience, the .308 under the same conditions was marginally better at .5 to .8".

Now, the up side of your chosen caliber is versatility. You have gobs. The -06 can shoot rounds weighing up to 220 grains or more. While this is not needed for a tactical rifle (depending on your philosophy), it gives you options the .308 does not. Try the 190 grain Match Kings. Good high BC and fair velocity. Best of all, you can tackle any north American game animal and not worry about being under gunned. In short, what you gave up in total accuracy you gained in total versatility. The .308 is so popular in part due to the fact that cases are so much more available today than the 06. Times change. In 1965 -06 brass was as cheap as a promise from Bill Clinton...
Scott <>
USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 15:25:52 (EDT) 

Before confusion starts, I was not suggesting hunting with the 190 MK! Use it for tactical and target work. Use the Game Kings for hunting.
Scott <erratta>
USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 15:28:19 (EDT) 
So do these Tasco Wunder-binoculars use an "artillery" mil-scale like the Steiners? Are they "auto-focus"? I have a pair of the "cheap, non-milspec" Steiner 8x30 Military/Marine binocs. The optics are outstanding and the auto-focus is very useful, if perhaps a little more eye-straining. I'm shopping for some larger (50mm+) binocs, and the price of the Tasco is certainly attractive. Auto-focus isn't mandatory but I want the optical quality to be as good as the Steiners I have...

Dave <>
San Jose, CA USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 15:44:03 (EDT) 

Oops, after my last post I reloaded the page and saw that Scott had just answered most of my questions, just not the one about the auto-focus. And I'm not sure if "surprisingly clear" is really good or not... :)

Dave <>
San Jose, CA USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 16:00:19 (EDT) 

Sarge peers from his hide and quietly asks:

Here is a stumper, for me anyway, let me see how some of you answer this one! Is there a corelation(sp) between the amount of powder, in grains, used for one bullet weight, in grains and the same powder but a different bullet weight in grains? Example: I currently use(.308) 41 grs of N140 under a 168gr MatchKing and get D--- good groups. Now lets say I want to use a 165gr GameKing with the same powder. Is there some way, other than just plain "playing", to figure how much powder to use to get the same kind of accuracy I get with the MatchKings using the GameKing bullets. Is this totally confusing! Hope not! This should be a good mind exercise for those of you that are mathematically inclined and will keep me from using up a bunch of powder trying to figure this out!

Sarge goes back and waits

Sarge <>
Area 51, NM USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 17:27:10 (EDT) 


Good Question, BAD Idea!!!!

Too many variables, too big a chance for a catistrophic failure and area 51 isn't far enough away.

Take Care!

Stay Safe!
Depity Dave <>
Back Home Again in, West Virginia USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 18:10:10 (EDT) 

Where IS that spell checker / proof reader???
Make That <>
Wild, Wet, Wonderful, West Virginia USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 18:19:22 (EDT) 
Dave from Belfast - Looks like us military guys were going to leave you hanging on your US military 7.62 ball question. Here's the deal why every body is being so shy...
As I count in my TM 43-0001-27 "Ammo data sheets for Small Caliber Ammo" I count 12 different flavors of 7.62 and 4 or 5 types of "ball" ammo. You more than likely have run into either M80, M118 (3 types floating around) or M852 (not really "ball").

M852 is the mil spec equivelent to Federal Gold medal match. It is easy to identify as the case has a knurling around the base, a headstamp that says "match" and a "hollow tip" projectile. If you are getting a lot fliers out of M852 it is probably you or the gun, not the ammo.

M118 and M80 are hard to tell apart out of the box. If you have two of each it is easy as the overall cartridge length of the M118 is slightly longer. (Longer bullet) If you pull a projectile and the bullet has a square base with 90 degree angles it is 146 grain M80 ball which is used as M14 ammunition or linked for 7.62 machine guns.

If it has a boat tail bullet (has an angled base, looks like a boat from the side) then it is M118. If it has a open tip bullet and a headstamp that says LR on it then you have the new M118 Long Range. Doubt if you have this stuff as it is very hard to get. Just ask Rick Boucher!

Did old white box M118 say "Match" on the head stamp boyz? Can't remember. I know it had LC and the year with no NATO crosshair symbol. M118 special ball has a little crosshair stamp which is supossed to mean it is a standard NATO load. (There is no such thing by the way. Ask me about the difference between Austrailian, Brit, Canadian and US 5.56 NATO ball sometimes.)

Some/most lots of M118 special ball are known for fliers. It was not made to match specs. M80 is supposed to have a certain "inaccuracy" built in as you don't want a M60 LMG to group real tight.

Anything else guys?

Gooch out.
gooch <>
Sherwood, AR USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 19:46:47 (EDT) 

On more thing while I had by ballistics binder out. Someone asked about the load for M118LR. In the 22 March 1966 report from Naval Surface Warfare Lab in Crane, Ind they list an average of 44.1 grains of WC 750 behind the 175 gr Sierra Match king. Primer??Hold on....... Doesn't say. Any one know if they changed anything since then?

Once again Gooch has stirred the shit!!!!

He is out of here!
gooch <>
Sherwood, AR USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 19:59:05 (EDT) 

The M118LR uses the "old" no. 43 match-grade primer, which is press-fitted into the case. I believe that the M118 SB used the no. 34 primer (same as in the M80), which was staked into the case. The cartridge is loaded with 43.9 - 44 grains of WC 750 and has a velocity of 2580 fps. I hear that there are some other powders
Mr. Bain <>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 20:35:56 (EDT) 
Scott (missing the darn x-ring) - Thank you for clarifying my mistake on the range graduations on the Tasco. I last saw it about 5 years ago and never had to use the ranging in the binos because of mil dots and a really HEAVY set of SIMRAD laser range finders.

Dave - To answer your question, I would never again buy another set of Steiners due to the cost and the low return on the cost. While you may "sense" a better quality in the Steiner over the Tasco, you probably wouldn't note a real difference. As I stated earlier, they have great clarity with very low abberation on the edges. Under normal circunstances you will NOT be disappointed. Under extended observation in low light situations, the Steiners will win due to a greater claity. Question, is that clarity worth the $600.00. I don't think so, but that is my opinion. Find someone that owns a pair and try them.

Gooch - I knew you'd answer sooner or later. I too do not remember if the M118 NM was head stamped Match. I could walk out to my "cache" and look, but that would spoil the memory games! If he is using Lot # 086-001 then he will be lucky to keep it within 4 moa due to a Lake City oops in powder throws. If he is shooting M80 ball, then he is ingesting ammo with a built in inaccuracy of 2 to 4 moa depending on the Lot #.

OK Boyz and Girlz (Alex, Bonnie, etc jump in!) Speaking of 7.62mm military ammo, what is the difference between regular linked 4+1 7.62 MG ammo and "Overhead Fire" linked 4+1 7.62 MG ammo? Gooch, you don't count. That dam theme song Saint Gooch is always talking about is now playing!!!

Gooch - Thanks for reminding me that the Marines sent me 4 cases of M118 SB instead of LR. Like I already have 27 cases of M852, what am I going to use the M118 SB for, the old M60?

Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 20:52:05 (EDT) 

Went out and did as you advised today was not to good to begain with but then I Broke out the ol' Marlein 880 .22 and figured out somewhat what i was attempting to do. And by the time i left the range my head was not buried in the sand but the tail was still tucked:)Have a long way to go but the first step has been taken!!

What's the "Sports Flash Filter"? And how does someone get if they need to have it?

Ok, now it's time to laugh at the Air Force Guy. A friend gave me a military style sling and much to my chagrin I can't figure out how to use it. Any instuctions as to it's use would be much appreciated.

You are going to love this Rember I e-mailed you that i was having trouble seeing through my scope at high power. Figured out why reading through the DR archives last night, when I mounted and postioned the scope it was at the lowest power setting and not the highest. Duh, Live and learn and don't repete the same mistakes, is what an old MSGT. told me long ago.

Thanks for all the info you gentlemen have provided me over the past couple of months. Work in a max. security prison and some days the only bright spot in an entire shift is knowing that Roster is waiting be read when i get home.
Stagger 10-42
Stagger <>
Learning Curve, of Bliss USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 22:42:32 (EDT) 

To Sarge: Youre just going to HAVE to break down, open up your wallet, and buy more powders. I know youre trying to economize (weve discussed this offline many times), but you cant COUNT on getting a good load from a different bullet with the same powder that gives you a good load with another bullet. It has little, if anything, to do with bullet weight. It has more to do with the amount of bearing surface, true caliber (of the bullet), and ballistic coefficient. Example: The loads that gave me great accuracy in my 110FP Tactical for target work were meaningless for my hunting loads (168-grain Match Kings versus 165-grain Game Kings). The best load for my 165s came from AA 2520, per Sierras recommendation right out of the manual. If you want to play with .308s, get a couple of ball powders, a few good extruded ones, and then start playing with load development. IMR 4064, the standard for .308s for years, has SUCKED in every .308 load Ive ever used it in. With a match barrel on my M1 Garand (.308 Winchester), it finally did okay -- but IMR 4895 beat it. The only thing IMR 4064 has done great in has been my .416 Remington Magnum loads.
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Tuesday, September 01, 1998 at 22:55:42 (EDT) 
Coryand Russ: Thanks for the information on the Tasco Off Shore 36. For a couple of c notes it sure beats shelling out anther 600 dollars for Steiners. That would be a small [rice to pay to get that type of quality. I guess Ive spend more money on a lot more dumber things than good binoc. I imagine I'm going to have to reassess my judgement of Tasco items, especially with the all the positives about this pair of binoc and their tactical scope.

Sarge: To a certain degree I agree with Russ about the your powder dilema, but with you using Vit 140 powder in your 308 for the 165 and 168 grainers, should work quite well. I am a big user of Vit powder in my 308 and 223 and it is hard to beat. I have obtained tremendous accurate with both these bullets, but as you can expect, the 168 grainer out performed the Game King by a slight margin. But if you do unleash those moths in that rarely opened wallet to purchase some bullet poppin' propellant, try some of the Varget powder. As you can see, I'm starting to drift away from the Dupont IMR powders, although I still use the 4895, 4064 and 3031.

Big Al has left the building to curl up next to his bride.

Have a good evening Everybody!

Al Ostapowcz <>
Terminating Hawgs with Extreme Prejudice in Bountiful, Ohio USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 00:35:18 (EDT) 

Torsten-My friend already contacted EAW. The rings are on the way. Many thanks.

The 700P DM went to the range yesterday and continued Shilen's shoot and clean break-in procedure. Fired two five shot and one three shot group. Consistent 2.5" patterns (I refuse to call this a group). When it was heavily fouled (right out of the box), it shot about half this size. The third wet patch after scrubbing comes out clear, but when I got home, I noticed that there is still quite a bit of copper at the muzzle. The bore seems to have an inordinate amount of tooling marks and the chamber scratches hell out of the cases. Haven't played with the torque on the action screws yet. Still 65 in\lbs. Plan to try this on the next trip. Shooting Federal Match. Any ideas on getting this thing to shoot sub-MOA? Already thinking about Accumax II. Who can do a good lap/square/rebarrel job with a reasonable turnaround? Not happy with the Big Green.

Now, where'd I put that hacksaw?
Andrew <>
Austin, tx USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 00:51:53 (EDT) 

To: Russell E. Taylor
Thanks for the advice, I think I'll try the 1st one. Keep the weapon as is. If I get too frustrated, I'll buy the same thing in the .308 which I may do anyhow (later provided I can afford it).

These "nitwits" are right now as I type this putting before Gov. Wilson; SB1500 and AB2560 which can technically ban "ALL" firearms in the State of California. With the way it has been written, you could become a felon for having a penknife on a tiregauge. There is a message phone that you can call and leave a 30 second "Veto" message for Gov.Wilson (916)445-2841.

To:Scott a.k.a. xring
Sounds like good solid advice to me, thanks.
JimmyG <>
CA USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 01:54:56 (EDT) 

To Andrew: I just sent you an E-mail about your problem. If you have further questions, contact me directly. Briefly, for benefit of the others here, lap the bore before you spend money on a better barrel. Do NOT fire-lap the bore. If you can't do a "traditional" lapping job properly, find a GOOD gunsmith who can. (It shouldn't cost you much more than $25 or so. We're talking elbow grease, SOFT lead bullets, and coarse-progressing-to-fine grits applied to the soft slugs.) If, after a GOOD, PROFESSIONAL lapping job, you don't get significantly better groups, I'll buy you a sixpack of your favorite domestic beer. Be advised, though, if you've got other problems with your rifle, lapping won't cure them.
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 06:30:27 (EDT) 
Concerning binoculars:
The difference between a quality binocular and one of lesser quality is mainly determined by the precision with which the chassis, or frame of the binocular, is machined. The human eye can withstand a small amount of convergence or divergence of the focal center of the lens groups between the two barrels of the binocular. Another way to think of this is a small amount of "wall-eyed" or "cross-eyed" factor to the binocular frame. What the eye has major difficulty with is when the two lens groups diverge up or down from each other slightly. The manifestation of this problem is eye strain to the user. Bird watchers spend hours looking through a binocular; they will tell you that there is no substitute for quality optics when the requirement is extended viewing. Fortunately it is rather easy to determine if the frame of a binocular is accurately machined for precise alignment of both barrels, simply spend about 10 minutes of continuous viewing time with it. If after that time you have some eye strain, or the beginnings of it, there is sufficient barrel mis-alignment to cause a problem. If there is no eye strain, they are more precise. There IS a difference between manufacturers, you only need compare binoculars directly.

A word about lenses. The quality of the majority of the lenses in most binoculars made today is high, most of the differences is in coatings applied to them. This is the result of major advances made by the Japanese in the method of producing lenses in quantity. The manufacturers most refered to in Duty Roster postings all have good lenses, differences will be in features such as range finding, compasses, mil-dots, etc., and the quality of the chassis of the binocular.

Compare brands you are interested in at the same time if possible, switching from one to the other, and do some extended viewing. Differences in viewing quality will become apparent quickly. If short term viewing is the only reqirement, then cost is not as much of a factor. However, if extended viewing is the norm (ie: glassing for a trophy) then get the best you can afford based on a "road test" of the binocular.
Fred Fischer <>
People's Republic of, MD USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 09:38:05 (EDT) 

Andrew: With your 700P DM to be getting such patterns as 2.5 at 100 yrds, I do not think that just hand lapping will correct that problem, but at least it is a start. It sounds like your rifle could use a good chamber polishing if your cases are coming out very scratched. Your cleaning techniques are exceptionally and keep doing that. By relieving your 65 lbs of torque on the action you may release the barrel into a or back to a free floating one. This could be the problem where at 65 lbs you may have to relieve it barrel channel. But remember there has to be a solution unless you just have a piss poor barrel and some didn't install it correctly. If this is a factory barreled rifle contact Remington and send it back to them. Don't give up on the Fed Match ammo however.

Alexander Ostapowicz <>
Mantua, Ohio USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 10:11:31 (EDT) 

Dave: First and explaination of the Surprisingly Clear statement! I am generally a hater of all things Tasco. I simply can find very little in terms of positive comments to offer on their products. That being said, both the SS10x42 and the Tasco Marine binos have given me pause. The binos are pretty good in terms of clarity and construction. I can not claim they are as bright as the Steiners (do not have a set to compare) but they are a quantum leap ahead of the $60 bair of Bushnell binos collecting dust in my closet. The Tasco Marine binos are not auto focus. You must adjust each eyepiece in the same manner as they old artillery binos or the M19s. Once focused for your eye, you do have some leeway and will not have to constantly refocus for various ranges. SO in short, yup, they are worth the money, and yup, I am surprise Tasco made them.

Rick and Gooch: I am going to stick my neck out here and say I "think" that the white box M118 Match did in fact have Match stamped into the head. BUT as I have fired cases from all three rounds (M118 match, M852 Match and M118 Special Ball, named thusly as it was "Special", like Jerry's Kids) I can not be sure which cases I am looking at, beyond the M852 with the Knurled base! But I do have a plain, unknurled case with Match stamped on it. Cunundrums....
Scott <>
USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 10:30:24 (EDT) 

Thanks to all on the Tasco binocs feedback. I'll try to locate a set to actually look through, but don't know how much success I'll have. While the ideal might be to compare plenty of models side-by-side, for 10 minutes at a time in various light conditions, the reality is much different.

Scott, I agree with your assessment of Bushnell, I've owned several of their products and tried others, and wasn't happy with any of them. I have one of their spotting scopes and am looking forward to replacing it with a Leupold or Kowa when budget allows.

Gooch: I think you made an assumption on Dave from Belfast's question. He wanted to know "what the military ball ammo for 7.62 is?" which may or may not mean US military. Perhaps if he's reading this he could clear up the matter?

JimmyG: Thanks for the info, I already have been making my calls as my local NRA group does a great job of keeping me informed.

Rick: You know, if you need to get rid of some of those M852 cases I think I could find a use for them... :)

Dave <>
San Jose, CA USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 12:16:17 (EDT) 

To all, this is kind of long, so bear with me. You gun smiths out there, feel free to add!

Andrew, here are some simple things to try before doing anything drastic with your rifle. I have a hard time believing the rifle shoots as bad as you say but I suppose a real lemon can get out once in a while. First off, I assume the scope is adjusted for your eye and the reticle is crisp against the target. Next I have to assume you have a solid bench platform with which to test the rifle.

Now onto some quick trouble shooting. Check the barrel for contact with the stock by passing a piece of paper under the tube, Slide it all the way back to the receiver. It should not snag or bind.

Next, with a pencil, mark the postion of your action screws. Carry the mark to the trigger guard so that you can find the approximate position later. Remove your scope and mount.

With the rifle laying in a rest, top up, Loosen the rear screw. Does the action pop up? If not, Reinstall the screw. Remove both screws and remove the action form the stock. Do you notice any wear marks on the bedding? Is the bolt handle hitting the rear of the slot in the stock? You will see a small mark it is does? Relieve if necessary.

Mark the recoil lug with talcum powder or foot powder (field expeidient) and reinstall the action. Remove. Does the lug contact the rear of the slot in the aluminum bedding block?

If the action is not sprung from lousy bedding, reinstall the action. By the way, with my bedding totally out of whack, the rifle still shot sub moa, so you may have other problems. Bedding usually causes odd stringing, but not necessarily really large groups. Barrel contact will cause inconsistency as the rifle heats, but not necessarily large groups. Is your groups stringing? Which way?

If you have a two piece scope mount base, Install both bases. Lay a straight edge across the top of the front base to the top of the rear. Are they aligned? Is there a gap between the straight edge and the rear base when you apply pressure to the straight edge against the front base? Sight down the action from the rear of the rifle. Are the bases level? If not, the scope, once installed can stress the action and the action the scope. Not good.

If you have a one piece base, install the front screws only. is there a gap between the rear of the base and the top of the action? Again, if this condition exists, it can cause stress on action or scope. Remove front screws. Install rear screws. Recheck.

Barrel. GO buy some JB bore cleaner. Completely clean the bore as directed. Do it again. JB should remove all fouling and let you start fresh. Use JB between EACH round for the next twenty rounds. You want that bore naked so that the break in process can smooth out the tooling. You can skip this if you have the barrel lapped.

Check you crown. It would have to be totally trashed to give you such lousy groups, but it is worth looking at. My 22-250 had a ding on the edge and still shot into the .4s, but you never know...

Check the contact area on the back of the bolt lugs. If you only have a very thin wear mark in the bluing, your bolt is not making much contact with the receiver. Most rifles will shoot well in spite of this, but it doesn't help. You want at least 50% to 60% contact in a factory rifle. 100% is better, but unusual.

Chances are bedding is the culprit in this problem. Try easing the action screws out one eigth of a turn. If bedding is the issue, get it fixed, fix it your self, or sell the rifle. If the barrel is still fouling badly after you have tried extreme cleaning, sell the rifle or return it to Remington with a really nasty letter. They WILL replace the complete barreled action if it is not acceptable and they screwed up. Huge tooling in the bore is a SCREW UP. Frankly, if it is shooting into 2.5 inches at 100 yards and your style is not at fault, I'd not waste my time on any of the above. I'd go right to the nearest Remington Repair rep and scream. Insist he send it back for replacement. That is why he is there. Go to the Remington site to locate the rep nearest you.

Hope this helps and hasn't annoyed too many of you for its length. This is my long post for the season...
Scott <>
USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 12:18:46 (EDT) 

I'm Baaaaaaaack! Phones lines screwed up and I just got them repaired. Cammo Jell-o for everyone!

Russ: Do you ever answer your phone?

Bain: Any reports of trouble with the Hornady TAP ammo? Got some and have had it shoot VERY low compaired to my special ball.

Torsten: Where's my walker?

Rick: Check 6 and e-mail.

Out here
Gramps <>
Hurricane City, USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 14:22:33 (EDT) 

Intel Update:

Scott- Thanks for the suggestions. You too Russ. For the record, I don't shoot THAT bad (Custom KS .338 shoots Federal/Nosler 210s about 1-1.25 MOA). However, I was shooting @ a range that has an anti-elevation shield immediately in front of the firing line. Have heard that bullets can be effected by passing close to objects but have never had problems with this before. Used JB extensively during first trip to range and it seemed to have no effect. Sweet's cleared up most of the copper at home. During second range trip, 25 passes with Shooters Choice on a brush would result in clean wet patch after every shot, but after range session, heavy copper was apparent.
The Mk4 bases are NOT square, front base appears to be .020" lower and perhaps angled down to front. Sighting from rear, they appear to perhaps be out of level. Slid a piece of notebook paper through channel and it becomes snug about 3" ahead of action, but can be slid all the way back. Recoil lug shows pretty good contact across the entire face of the bedding block. Recoil lug appears square, but out of plumb. Locking lugs show very light wear along edges (40%?) with one good contact patch (10%?) centered on leading edge of right lug and following edge of left. Drew a line on action along stock and noticed no movement when I removed rear screw. Good contact with edges of block between recoil lug and mag well, inconsistent contact with edges elsewhere. No apparent wear on stock. Is the problem with my bases or is my action tweaked?
When I bought this rifle, I intended to have it rechambered and squared, assuming I got results similar to X-ring's review gun. Probably would have had it Blackstarred. If my barrel is trash, does this have any bearing on the quality of the action? Sorry about the long post. All input is greatly appreciated. Seeking half MOA.
Off to fire some AA at small feathered fast-movers,
Andrew <>
Austin, TX USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 16:20:49 (EDT) 

I am having a custom rifle built with a Remington action in 300 win mag. I would like to know what the best twist for this round using federal gold medal match in 190 grain Sierra MatchKing BTHP. All information would be much appreciated. Thanks.
Pickett <>
Hills of , TN USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 16:48:49 (EDT) 

One thing I haven't seen mentioned and is worth a try is to mount a different scope and shoot the rifle. I believe in this enough that I have one scope I use to set all my rifles up, I know what this scope will do, anything outside these parameters is then the rifle.

Dave Martin <>
ok USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 17:15:31 (EDT) 


Scotts right with his advice on the things to check on your rifle. It sounds like a scope problem more than a rifle problem. You can have at least half the things Scott mentioned wronge with your gun and it will still shoot better than that! Have you tried a different scope on it? I had a 223 start shooting bad one day for no reason and the scope had went "South" on me. I changed scopes and that took care of the problem. (Of course this was after another 500 rounds down range and a number of powder and bullet changes)


On your question, I've only had one gun that shot the same load with both the match and the hunting round and it was a 300 Win Mag with the Hornady 168s and the 165BT the only real difference was about a one half inch point of impact change and a tenth change in group size. The Nozler Balistic Tip in some of my rifles will shoot better than the same weight match round!! This seems to be true mostly in the 6mm.
Pat <>
USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 17:17:12 (EDT) 


I just missed your post or I would have answered you with my other post. Go with the 1 in 10 twist. I had several 300 Win Mags and they all shot well. I used the 190s in all of them and they all seemed to like IMR4350 the best with RL-22 a real close second. All guns are differen't but it will be a good starting point.
Par <>
USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 17:25:34 (EDT) 

Sarge fires from his hide:

Thanks one and all for the powder/bullet recommendations and comments, they are appreciated. First I'd like to ask....WHAT'S A WALLET??? I'm so broke I can't even change my mind!!! Now as for the combinations: I've tried the N140 with the 165 (same load 41 grs) and the only thing I remember was it shot a bit high, 1" at 100yds, compared to the 168, but I need to try that again. As to Varget, I tried some in various different rifles, including the .308 and to be honest NONE of my rifles liked it AT ALL! Only other powders I currently have are H380 for my .22-250 and N160 for my sons .243. So yes I guess I'll have to find, first a wallet, then the money to put in it so I can get a can or two of different powders! OK talked me into it AGAIN, I'll try the AA2520 first mainly because history has shown that your 110FP and mine seem to like the identical loads!

Sarge slides back in his hide waiting for return fire and any other suggestions/recommendations!

Sarge <>
Area 51, NM USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 17:45:01 (EDT) 

To Andrew: Scott is right, on all he said... but I maintain that if your bore is fouling as bad as you said, and if it looks that bad, then you should lap it. And certainly, as Al pointed out (I just didnt say anything about it earlier), if the chambers that bad, it should be polished. You could do this yourself with a power drill, a segment of cleaning rod, some patches, and some JB Bore Paste or even rubbing compound (block off the bore, first).

It seems, Andrew, that you and your rifle are fast becoming a Sniper Country project. So, whatever you decide to do with all the varying pieces of advice weve all given you, please do us a favor and document the results of each change you make, and report to us on your findings.

To Scott: That was an excellent post. Im doubling your Sniper Country salary.

To Ed: Phone? During the day, no. I sleep during the day, like a vampire. Nature of the beast when you work third shift. I got your message that you called, off the answering machine, but you didnt leave a number to call you back. Keep trying. Hey, call RIGHT NOW, Im here!!! :-)

To Sarge: Yes, I agree, our two 110FP Tacticals seem to like the same fodder. One nice thing about hunting loads with the AA 2520, it sure as heck meters well!!!

Note:  I just finished cleaning up the Duty Roster a bit, removing double posts from Al O. and some others.  Hey, guys, look... long posts are one thing, DOUBLE POSTS ARE ANOTHER!!!  Do you guys think you could manage to go for a while without any double posts?!!!  Marius, Mr. Bain, and me are the primary "Roster Cleaners" around here, and we'd sure appreciate it if you'd JUST HIT THE !q#$@%^ "SUBMIT" BUTTON ONE TIME!!!

Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 20:34:02 (EDT) 

Stagger - You asked about the sports flash filter. I know of a device called the "Kill flash". I think the sports flash is a lighter weight version of the kill flash. It is a honey comb like device which goes over the objective lens on a scope to reduce reflection. It works good in bright light conditions such as over snow and sand as there is plenty of abient light around. It does cut down on the light transmitted through scope though. I think Butler Creek distributes them know.

You also ask about the use of the military sling. I "ass"ume you mean the M1907 MRT leather sling. Giving instructions on the use of "Rubics Sling" through this media is like telling you how to rebuild a small block chevy over the phone. Not prudent. Find an old high power shooter is about the best I can do. Seriously, if any one tried to tell you how to attach and adjust one over this web site you would probably end up with one end of the sling wrapped around you neck and the rifle barrel up your butt. It is confusing.

Binoculars, Those of you near military posts keep an eye out at the disposal auctions. The airforce recently had a bunch of M19 7x50's up for auction. My unit scarfed a bunch of them up for 50.00 each.

By the way Scott it is the M22 series of bino's that have the "catch me-kill me" laser filters on them. It's too bad that none of us have figured out how to remove the filters. Not that any of us would do that if we could figure it out because that would be against regs. Everybody knows that soldiers and Marines never violate the regs.

Dave from San Jose - Scuuuuuse me. I shall refrain from making "ass"umptions based on a question.

Dave from Belfast, Maine, USA did you mean Irish ball? I "ass"umed you meant US.

Well enough salient commentary for tonight.

Gooch is going to get some sleep tonight. Enough web surfing for me. Wait a minute, I know a good Jenny McCarthy web site!!!! Here we go!!!!
gooch <>
Sherwood, Ar USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 21:11:36 (EDT) 

Big Ed: No, not yet. I'm working on it (as is Russ). How did you get some?

Gooch: Hey, how can I snag one of these great deals on "jen-U-wine" M19 binocs?


Mr. Bain <>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Wednesday, September 02, 1998 at 23:00:49 (EDT) 

Russ: Sorry about double post. It was my fault and purely unintentional. Russ: Sorry about double post. It was my fault and purely unintentional. (Ooops)

Gooch: After reading your post and article about the Mil-Dot Master, I will be ordering one. You know that for $29.95 it is about the cheapest thing which one can find related to tactical shooting. And if it works the way you said it does, well, I "ass" ume the money will be well spent. And another thing! If you spent $50.00 for those M19 binoculars, I gladly buy a pair from your ourfit for $75.00. That's a pretty good return on anyone's money. Please let me know if any are still available.

Gramps: Nice to see you back again and haven't forgot where we were located. It probably wasn't, the computer. You probably just misplaced your spek-tick-als. Welcome back!

Al Ostapowicz <>
Doublin" my Pleasures here in , Ohio USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 00:37:21 (EDT) 

Crazy J: I'm not a true expert on the subject on rifle scopes but my Tasco World Class Plus gives me great service on my Savage 110 .30/06. The clicks are a little soft and I would prefer if they were a little harder. As far a clarity goes well it compairs with a well known scope that costs about 8 times more!

Steve: I noticed nobody wants to debate weather or not the Springfield 03A3 0r the Enfield #4(t) is more accurate!

Sarge: All I can say about your load is play with it and find one you like. I too am on a limited budget so i found 1 powder for three diffferent calibers. I've tried Varget in the /06 and 22-250 i't fine but I can't get any FACTORY info for the .303. I found Factory info with BL(c)2 and I be happy with that. (.750 /06) (.690 .22-250) (skeet@300yds

(A redneck too big to climb trees) Confederate
Confederate <>
Possum Town, Mississippi USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 03:27:25 (EDT) 

To Al: No problem.
To Al: No problem.

You're not the only one, it's just that your name was one I could remember. Believe me, many others have done it too. In "the old days," one member of the Sniper Country Council, who shall remain nameless, but whose initials are "Scott Powers" was the double-post king. Actually, he went about setting new records... five, six, occasionally even MORE "repeat" posts than THAT!

To Gooch: The DRMO here on (Rock Island) Arsenal Island might have some of those binoculars. I've put the word out to a friend who will apprise me when the next auction is. (I know what you mean about "great finds." In my last Reserve unit, when I was a member of the rifle team, one of our guys, who was also the UA in our unit, found a Unertl 80mm spotting scope at the RIA DRMO. Because it was "Army property," he just did what any self-motivated UA would do -- he did a property book transfer from "them" to "us"... after showing "need," of course. Once it was ours, we took it with us to compete at Camp Robinson. That was a NICE scope!!!)
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 03:50:10 (EDT) 

On second thought... I believe that Unertl was 100mm. In fact, I know it was. Man, that thing was CLEAR!
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 03:54:49 (EDT) 
I've been trying to get my Model 70 300 WinMag to group. It was recently rebarrelled with a Shilen stainless #4 contour that finished out at 27". It's in an HS stock torqued down at 45 in/lbs. It's been shooting 1.5-2MOA, but I noticed that after the barrel heats up, the groups tighten up a bit. I slid a business card under the barrel to the receiver, where it becomes snug. The first three shots after I did this went into .375". The last two opened the group up to about 1.5. The barrel was allowed to cool completely between shots.

I was thinking of bedding the the first two inches in front of the receiver to dampen the vibes on the long barrel, which I suspect may be part of the problem, but those last two wild shots have me puzzled. Any thoughts?
Greg <>
Palmyra, PA USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 06:50:47 (EDT) 

To Greg: You'll get different opinions, but that's what the Duty Roster is for. Personally, I've always heard that a barrel (especially a heavy one) should be bedded "at least" two inches forward of the receiver lug. And if you're going to look into the bedding situation, you might as well check the whole thing (Scott posted some VERY helpful hints last night). A #4 contour isn't that heavy, but a 27-inch barrel, hanging off the action, can perhaps put a little more stress on the receiver than you might want. I don't think it would hurt to bed three inches forward of the receiver lug. I'm curious why your groups are tightening up when the barrel heats up. Is it actually that, or is your barrel fouling with copper and then, therefore, shooting better? Again, refer to Scott's guidelines (which I'll probably post as an article, shortly, on how to inspect and correct "problem" rifles).

You didn't mention your ammunition; what are you using? Handloads? Premium match-grade ammo? If handloads, you may still need to find the right load. If factory ammo, you may need to shop around. Since you selected a #4 contour, I presume you're intending for this rifle to be mainly a hunting rig. Whatever the case, don't expect a #4 contour barrel to hold sustained tight groups as well as those of barrels with a #7 or a #8 contour.

Did you break in the barrel properly?
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 07:07:35 (EDT) 

Al: Specks, what specks? I use coke bottle bottoms!

Bain: I told Russ where to get TAP, I know it's super secret and only for LE personnel but even you can buy it from the Sportsmans Guide, (now don't tell anybody OK)?

Russ: I e-mailed you my number young-un, did ya ferget it?
I know you sleep days, so do I, called you in the PM, will call again this PM, going to bed now!!!!!! (Teenaged wife is waiting and the Viagra just cut in)!!!!!!!!

Torsten: Walker, one each, WHERE?????????? Has the Eagle landed? Does it fit?

Out here
Gramps <>
Old folks home, USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 08:27:24 (EDT) 

To Gramps: You E-mailed me your number? Okay, I'll look for it.

To those interested: Recently, I posted that I have in my possession a (published) letter from a sniper (Army) complaining about the M24 SWS. In case you've been coming here first, instead of to the main page (shame on you if you do), you may not have noticed that I posted the letter on the Articles & Commentary page. Rick, the guy was at FT Bragg, so it won't surprise me if you know him, or know OF him. Many of you wrote to me, privately, asking to see the letter, so I've scanned it and posted it. It takes a while to download, because I used a high (600 DPI) resolution to scan it, but at least it's clear enough that you can read it.
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 09:18:53 (EDT) 

Before you discount Varget did you load it at the max of 46grs. in civilian or 45 to 45.5grs. in military cases?? It has shot great in all my 308s but only at 45 to 46 grs. if I went lower the groups turned into patterns. I tried to get it to match the same FPS on a Cronograph as Federal Match and it shot terrible. When I went to the recommended load fo 46grs. with federal cases my groups went to .3s & .4s at 2800 fps. What I like about it is you get the best of both worlds, speed and accuracy.

Welcome back!! Boy...Just because a guy forgets where you left your computer you catch all kinds of flack!!

Shawn called last night and said he has a meeting with Major Brewer's recruiter on the 12th and 13th. Sounds as though he might get in with them. They said he might get to go to school in Ark. so he was hopeing you would still be around. He said ever since he talked to the recruiter he just can't quit grinning(HA). (I told him when he talked to them to see if he could take me along) I got Bruce's Mil Dot
Master it works great!! the only suggestion I would have is that you could range smaller targets to less than one mil but you were right on on your evaluation, quick and easy to understand.
Pat <>
USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 09:37:47 (EDT) 

Double Posts: GUILTY as CHARGED. I am the all time Dali-Lama of multiple posts. Of crouse, it wasn't my fault...really...I am telling the truth...really....

SportFLash: The SportFLash is a small disk that slips into the Butler Creek flip up scope cap. It is a honey comb grid about 1/4" thick. It is equivelent to about a 4" sunshade. It eliminates tell tale reflection from the lens. Costs about $7.00. Downside: It really cuts back light transmission. They say you lose about 15%. Sometimes this matters, sometimes it doesn't. Nice thing about the filter is that it is easily removed when necessary. I even put a set on my Tasco Marines (now called Offshores). You can purchase this filter from Premier Reticle, Sparten Supply, Natchez, and just about anyone else who sells Butler Creek products. The filter is a spin off of the Teneabreax KillFlash used by the military. Teneabreax Licensed Butler Creek to sell the SportFlash.

Gooch: Yeah, that was a typo on my part. As an 11H I only rated the M19. The M22 was horded by those unappreciative cretins in the scout platoon. Of course, as it stood out so bloody well, I didn't mind all that much. When caught in light at night, the M22 really did look like the devil himself was staring at you! $50 bucks for the M19 huh? Hmm....So Gooch ole buddy ole pal...drop me a line huh?

Andrew: If your scope mounts are that far off and canted sideways, the only fix is to go to a one piece mount and have a Remington Rep play with it till he can square it up. Do not pay a smith for this as it was Remington's mistake and their responsibility! I know what the Rep will tell you. Unless you put money into the gun in terms of tuning and action truing, he will want to send it back for replacement, which as I said, is what I would do were I you. If the barrel is that bad AND the scope base mounting holes are drilled that out of square, Remington had better replace it post haste! Look at it this way, you'll be getting a new barreled action! The comment on the scope was a good point. Check it. But still, if the mounting holes are that far off, your scope is being unecessarily stressed and that is unacceptable. Toss in the crappy bore and you have a lemon. Return it.
Scott <>
USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 09:44:57 (EDT) 

Anderw, go to this site. It has al isting of all the Remington Reps in Texas.
Scott <>
USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 09:51:58 (EDT) 

Just woke up this morning to hear that Swiss Air flight 111 crashed no more than 85 miles from where I live,apparently with a loss of 230 lives.Certainly not a good way to start the day.My heartfelt sympathies go out to the families of those who lost their lives.

I have a question in regards to barrell stiffness.Does stainless steel offer more resistance to barrell harmonics than say chrome moly steel because of its composition and hardness ?

If this is so,would even stonger steels such as titanium or other alloys (can you imagine how much this would cost !) offer improved accuracy gains over conventional commercially available steels such as chrome moly or 416 stainless steel ?

I would "ass"ume that if an even stronger material was available,that you could have a barrell that was lighter and more durable barrell life (in terms of number of accurate rounds fired) and maybe easier to clean.

Do any of you out there have an opinion on this ?

Jeff B. <>
Truro, N.S. Canada, eh ! - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 09:52:23 (EDT) 

Pickett: Just rread your post about your 300 WM and barrel twist. I agree w/ Mr. Bullet one thousand percent.

1 in 10 twist for 300WM w/ 190gr bullets. By the way, will you be handloading?

Scott: That post, re: Andrew's rifle was a great read. I read things like your post, I learn stuff. Thanks. Your post needs an acronym and a title:
B.T.D.P.S.P.P.S.R.R.S.A.M. pronounced "Bits-pissersam".. which means: Basic Triage & Diagnostic Protocol for Successful Proactive Paradighm-Shift Regarding Rifle/Scope Accuracy Malaise.

That ought to at least give mid-management level Dilberts a bit of a bodyhard..

Well, I missed my last two electroshock appts. and have had too much coffee this morning. Plus sleeping in the street next to my mailbox waiting for my Mildot Master to arrive puts me on edge.

Jeff A. <>
Smyrna, Ga USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 10:13:45 (EDT) 

Russ: For your unswerving devotion to getting rid of the double posts, I'm sending over the Double Mint Twins tonight to help sooth your raw fingertip, and relieve all that pent up frustration. Its the least I can do!

Jeff B from Canada: As far as barrel stiffness goes, a 26 or a 27 inch tube on your action is ok but is not really necessary for a 308. I would recommend a 24 incher,in a #6 or #7 contour and fluted for better cooling. I also think that a stainless steel barrel is slightly softer than a Chrome moly barrel. The last time I inquire from Douglas, this is what they told me. But this was quite some time ago and I could be wrong. You know the miind is a strange thing. Gramps - you can relate, Im sure.

Jeff A from GA. Bits-Pissersam HUH?????

Notice that GOOCH is keeping awfully quiet sittin' on them thar Binoculars.

Al Ostapowicz <>
Lookin Out my Back Door in , Ohio USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 11:13:16 (EDT) 

Thought I would add a bit of history to this channel:
Old Poem: One went high, one went low where in the h,,, did the other one go, Remington or was that burmashave.

Any way:
1750 Brown Bess 80 yard accuracy,
1775 Pennsylvania Long 300 yard,
1855 .58 Caliber rifled musket 500yd,
1859 Sharps 600yd,
1863 Whitworth 1000yd, cost $500 back then
1874 50 caliber Sharps 1200yd,
1903 Springfield(M1D) 500 yd,
1937 Model 70 Winchester 1300 yds

The longest shot that I have read about that was confirmed and didn't use >2 rounds was made by Hathcock using a 50 caliber with an 8x Unertl. 1st hit the bike and the 2nd hit te guy that was on the bike @ 2500yds. Buddy that isn't just hit and miss.

One last piece of history, "War our Bussiness Death our Only Product".

I wasn't sure if history was appropriate for the site, so I'll send this up as balloon.

Question: What is the best charge thrower for getting 1/10 grain accuracy from extruded powders? I keeping hearing culver types are the best. Anybody seen comparisons?

Signed LMGTS(Let me get this straight.)

tom <>
FR, VA USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 13:12:59 (EDT) 

As many of you have requested info on Cryo treatment and its affects, the following may be a welcome read:

In the September 98 issue (Vol 46, No. 5 ) of Precision Shooting magazine, on page 8, an aritlce resides by one Kevin Thomas. Mr. Thomas happens to work at Sierra Bullets and due to the nature of his work, fires about 60,000 rounds a year testing projectiles. He recently completed an indepth test of three identical barreled actions used in this testing process. Two of the three were cryo'd and one was kept untreated as a test base. The article is well worth reading, as the results are well laid out and to my mind, settle the issue once and for all.

I'll give you a short synopsis. Cryo does not make a rifle easier to clean as has been claimed. Cryo does not make a rifle more accurate, at least if the rifle in question already has a quality barrel (he used Hart barrels for the test). Cryo in fact seemed to make no difference at all between the barrels. The one and only positive result garnered would seem to be a slight increase in the accuracy LIFE of a barrel. The non-cryo'd barrel lost accuracy around 4,000 rounds. The two cryo'd barrels went as far as 4,500 rounds and one of those two may go a little farther. But that was it. A fouth barrel from BlackStar was also included in the test and the results were about the same. It lasted no longer than the others and died before the 4,500 round mark.

Errosion was consistent in all rifles with no noticable difference. All rifles shot to with in a .100" or so in terms of average accuracy. Mr. Thomas did make mention of the fact that these were top quality barrels and that it is possible that a factory barrel might show more improvement as it undergoes more stress in its creation. But the end result from his test would indicate saving your money. This would seem to correspond with my FAR, FAR less indepth testing to date which has indicated very little improvement by cryo treating. I saw far more improvements from bedding fixes and truing the action. If you have a choice of truing the action or cryo/polish, true the action!

The report is well worth reading. If you do not subscribe to PS, you can get single copies by calling the magazine. 860-645-8776.

Ok. I lied. The inspection piece was NOT my last long post...but after reading this article, it seemed worth passing on!
Scott <>
USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 13:36:36 (EDT) 

Jeff A.,

"B.T.D.P.S.P.P.S.R.R.S.A.M."? man, I like that!


there you have your name and acronym for Scott's piece when you post it. If I see a name like that I will just HAVE to look, just to see what the heck all that is about :-)


nice piece - very nice indeed. E-mailed it to myself for my archives, printed it out for my files and my safe - will keep this one to be used. Great piece!


how much did you say again it'll cost you to ship one of those binos to South Africa? :-)

Now the South African Army, when THEY sell stuff, you know it is really stuffED!

Jeff B,

on barrel material. If one could get those "stiffer" materials, it would have an influence. All good? I am not so sure. Those barrel harmonics play an important role - else one would not free-float a barrel, but totally clamp it down. Also, it would bring its own problems.
What would happen to the "bulge" one gets where the bullet travels through the barrel? If the material is harder, it will be less prone to bulge, and possible deform the bullet more, destroying accuracy much more than one would gain with the stiffer barrel. Also, if the bullets were too hard, like tungsten-cored, one might get more damage to the barrel, and even have a barrel that pulls a cast-iron on you, and just shatters!
Yes, I know I am now talking real extremes, but that's the fun of this, isn't it?

Marius Ferreira <>
Pretoria, Gauteng, USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 14:18:55 (EDT) 


Barrel break-in was as Shilen recommends: clean after every round for the first five, then clean after every 5-shot group for 10 groups. The group I referred to in my first post was actually the 11th group. Cleaning was with Hoppes #9 and JB paste. To the naked eye, the bore looks clean and mirrored, but you can detect some tooling marks in the grooves.

The ammo are handloads: 76gr H4831 behind a Sierra 180gr SPBT, Federal Gold Medal brass, Win WLR primers. Tried CCI 250 (magnum) primers, but they were flattening and cratering a bit too much to suit me. As a side note, I did try shooting the same load with the bullet seated out just barely touching the lands, which is about .150" longer than "magazine" depth: no improvement.

As you suspected, this is a hunting rifle that I will be using in Wyoming in about 4 weeks.

I understand your point about the fouling rather than barrel heating, but the 3 shots into 3/8" (with the business card shoved under the breech) was with a clean, cool barrel.

Perhaps I am expecting a bit too much out of a light barrel like this, but I have some time yet to play with it. In addition to following Scott's tips, maybe I should try some factory ammo such as the Federal Premium with the Nosler Partitions.
Greg <>
Palmyra, PA USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 16:53:12 (EDT) 

Marius I don't think your too far off on extremes.In fact I think you've made some good points.

You often hear (especially on this site !) about individuals who wish to replace their current barrell with a custom replacement.People who shoot magnum calibres such as myself can't expect to get near the same barrell life that should be expected if you shoot other calibres such as .308 Winchester.

My point being that I can expect to replace barrells more often than some others.For example,since I've purchased my Rem. Sendero in 7mm mag. in November last year I've put around 500 rds. through it.Sure,I know its just getting broke in.I'm trying to prolong barrell life by seldom shooting maximum power loads and using moly coated bullets.

Therefore, I was wondering if other materials might offer more barrell life than what is currently available.Of course it would likely be more costly but it could very well be worth the extra expense.

Shooters who prefer to shoot overbore calibres such as .30/.378 or 7mm STW may also benefit from a harder material because of severe throat erosion problems associated with them.

Hey,just remember that we live in a market based economy and if there's enough demand for anything,then you can be sure someone will be willing to supply it.

Jeff B. <>
Truro, N.S. Canada - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 17:57:28 (EDT) 

To Al: Thanks for the offer of the twins, but Ill pass. Just not in the mood for that kind of stuff these days. Thanks, though.

To Tom LMGTS Scott: Gazing with awe at the benchrest sport for a few years now (undeniably a rich mans game), Ive looked into what it takes to be successful. There are a couple of other really good ones, but the Culver model is unarguably one of the very best. Its also, like anything else associated with benchrest, NOT CHEAP. Id be interested in hearing what measures some of you serious handloaders are using, along with your comments about them.

To Greg: A #4 contour barrel isnt toast by any means, just because its lighter than a #8 version. If you go through Scotts soon-to-be-infamous post, you might find some problem areas. By all means, try some premium-grade ammo, shoot carefully, and see what happens. Report back to us when youve done so.

Hunting in Wyoming, eh? Pronghorn? (( sigh ))

To Jeff B.: Shooters who prefer to shoot overbore calibres such as .30/.378 or 7mm STW may also benefit from a harder material because of severe throat erosion problems associated with them. Quite right. This is exactly why I double cryoed my .338/378s barrel.

Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 19:39:35 (EDT) 

Scott: Thanks for the loads of info. Remington rep is nearby. Checked the bases with a bubble level and they definitely appear to be out of square on both axes. I can see how improperly drilled holes would throw them out of square on the left-right axis, but how could that affect them on the longitudinal axis? Wouldn't that denote either that the action was not square or that the bases themselves were improperly machined (which I "ass"ume only Leupold could determine as they are dissimilar and I don't know the proper dimensions). If I decide to rebarrel (likely), I would like to be sure I don't have a lemon action. Didn't even think to check the scope as it is a brand new Mk4 M1, but I will check that out on the next trip to the range.
Thanks to everyone,
Andrew <>
Throw a rock, hit a fascist, TX USA - Thursday, September 03, 1998 at 20:49:10 (EDT) 
To Confederate: Enfield vs Springfield debate
I guess most of these guys here prefer these generic,
no history, or character, varmit rifles once removed.
By the way, the only things that the Springfield needed was a decent scope and a milled floorplate to be a capable performer.
Steve <>
S.C.D.H,, Ohio USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 00:38:19 (EDT) 
Scott- I liked your article in last months issue of TS. A friend of mine just bought a new PSS and mounted a Leupold Tactical on it. I showed him the article and he is making plans for changes already. The only thing he doesn't like is that my Savage shoots 1/4 moa better than the Remington with a Tasco Tactical on top. ( They just won't listen Russ! )
Gooch - Hey man I understand your a new bino. dealer?!?
Please let me know if you can get more.

Sarge - Let me know how your new loads turn out.

Stay safe guys

Brent <>
hotashellin, Louisiana USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 02:15:44 (EDT) 

M19 Bino's - Sorry guys. My unit is not in the retail buisness re: the binoculars. Our best bet on these things is if Russ catches a bunch on auction at his DRMO.

Pat Murphy - You guys that have purchased Mildot Masters need to email for instructions on how to use it for targets under 1 mil.

In short if you look at the right window you will notice that on the right side of the window, you have mils broken down into gnats hairs. In the right side window you have the bullet drop in inches. Line the gnats hair mils (target mil reading) with the bullet drop inches (used in this instance as target size) and read the distance in the normal place. Viola!! Bruce Robinson can email you a sheet to add to your manual if you email him. He doesn't relate directions using such colorful terms as "gnat hairs" but it is a bit clearer.

mrbullet - Good to hear about the younger Murphy and his endeavor to join the NE guard. I know he will enjoy his time with them. Nebraska has a great shooting program. Sometimes I think they are in a different National Guard than I am. Let me know if he comes down here. Tell him to have his ghillie done prior to arrival. He'll get an extra few hours of sleep if he does.

Speaking of sleep I think I shall obtain some of said sleep.

Gooch out.
gooch <>
Sherwood, AR USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 02:18:37 (EDT) 


the blue and yellow shotgun company will have production samples in three weeks. brace for impact !

Germany - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 06:43:43 (EDT) 


der Eagle has gefallen out of zee schky !

It fit´s, thank you, what do I do about people staring at me ?? I´ll send you all the babes that I cant handle.

The walker is hung up in customs, I need export permission since it contains material for LE and Mil only. e.g., the Martin Baker seat cushion, and the Huffer APU ! They cant figure out what the Camo Jell-O (tm) fed vulcan is for eather.

I´ll keep you posted BTW our Nauga pup is comming along
Germany - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 08:11:34 (EDT) 

Jellomeister !

out of my TM30-606 German phrase Book,

ZINT zee SHARF-sheet-sa ? KAW-men!

Germany - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 08:20:12 (EDT) 

To Tom Scott, re. long shots.

Djengis Kahn set up two memorials for one of his archers somewere along the Silk Road in Mongolia (I think). One stone was placed were the arrow was fired from and the other were the target were hit. The distance between the stones are something like 600 or 900 meters (can't remember). Saw this many years ago in a documentary about the Silk Road. Not bad with a bow and arrow!

To Scott Powers: Have you received my snailmail? Sent it last friday, airmail.
Oslo, Norway - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 09:20:49 (EDT) 

When making the ghillie suit what works the best a hood or a boonie hat?? also what color of BDUs works the best??
I've made several for coyote hunting and I use a hamock net and lace the burlap through the netting the last one I made I shredded the burlap into strings and tied it on, its more
durable but harder to change colors. which way would you recommend doing it?? Thanks for the info on the Mil Dot Master too. I had a E.mail from Bruce telling me the same thing and offering the new up date. He really takes care of his customers and has a great product for all you guys shooting the Mil Dots.

I know this will start one Heck of a responce and fight but here goes, I had a new Schneider 308 bbl put on my 308 this summer and at first I had problems with a land fouling at the end of the bbl. It just wouldn't come clean for the last inch or so. So I would get out the JBs and after a few passes it was gone until the next cleaning. Finally I called Mr.Schneider and told him about the problem and that I kept getting a flyer almost all the time. He asked me about the break in and the cleaning procedure and had no problem with it until I told him about the JBs and he said eveytime you use JBs you will need to start the break in process allover again because your gun will foul more until its made its "Bond" with the copper. I of course doubted him and tried it for myself and found that it would indeed take longer to clean and had more copper fouling until it was shot in again. Well there it is I'am ducking for cover so fire away!!
Pat <>
USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 10:49:14 (EDT) 

Scott do you have one of the Mildot Masters? And if so are you bring it to S. M. next week. I would like to ckeck it out. I also got a set of photos for the the comp last May so you can get the ones you need to replace for the the ones you sent out for that article. See you at S. M. LeMay OUT
LeMay <lemayj@mdot.state.mi us>
MI USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 10:52:40 (EDT) 
Andrew: I doubt the problem is with the scope bases! I have seen MANY rifles from MANY manufacturers with this lopsided screw hole condition. The holes look aligned until you mount a base or spec them out. I secretly think this is why the Redfield base has become so popular! You can adjust for a lot of receiver errors with it. BUT not twist. I have seen bases twisted due to the way the holes were drilled into the receiver.

Take heart though. If you are determined to keep your rifle, a good smith can fix the problem by using a one piece base. One explained it to me but I'd be hard pressed to pass the knowledge along. Al?

Oh yeay, before I forget, I left out a part in the troubleshooting piece. Reinstall the action in the stock, torque to spec. Install the scope mounts and scope. Remove the rear action screw. Does the action move or pop out at the rear? A good strong scope base can stress an action if the scope mounting holes in the receiver are not true OR if the base is not true. Check 'em both.

LeMay: Nope. I do not have a mil-dot master. Till someone sends me on out of the goodness of their heart (HINT HINT), I will not be getting one. I am tapped out. I had to buy another case of Fed GM for next week.

JB: Pat, your not starting a fire storm. JB is pretty harmless to a bore and may even assist polishing it, but no one should use it for regular daily cleaning. I use it about every 50 to 100 rounds. Guys who moly really need it to remove the hard carbon rings that can form near the chamber if they are slacking in their regular cleaning and relying on moly to keep things tidy.

TorF: Yes Sir! Many thanks. I got it yesterday. Interesting magazines!

Hey Torsten! How about emailing me an English translation of Der Panzer Lied (Lied der Panzertruppen)?
Scott <>
USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 11:49:13 (EDT) 

A recap may be in order on the subject of loading. For those of you having problems getting a rifle to shoot with handloads, Keep in mind that especially with the .308, your most accuracte load is generally not going to be your fastest one. Other cartridges will exhibit this frustrating tendency also. I had one .308 that would literally punch a single hole @ 2450 fps muzzle V, but would go to around an inch at the velocity I wanted (2620 fps)! Same with a .300 win mag I had. So if you are loading a Match King bullet to max, you need to start backing off and seeing what happens. I try to settle for a good compromise. I'll give up a little accuracy (but not much) for a velocity that will reflect the come-up/windage data I want. Having a bullet that will group in the .2s is useless if it is only putzing along at 2300 fps! Also, if you are having fouling problems, start reassesing the velocity issue. It may be way too high.
Scott <>
USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 12:04:19 (EDT) 
Scott Yes I know how that go's I just got done loading up 3000 rounds of 308 for the next 2 weeks. LeMay OUT
MI USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 13:23:43 (EDT) 
To all: I'll be out of the loop for two weeks. Have fun, shoot straight, and always remember, it if don't shoot well, it can always substitute as a tent peg!
Scott <>
USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 13:51:42 (EDT) 
Torsten ( and any other takers ),

back on August 11, 1998 at 14:53:14, you made the following statement about annealing:
"Then get the old Butane torch and heat the case necks, but do NOT dump them in the water !
Let them cool and you have soft necks again ready for sizing."

Now this is contrary to almost all I've seen on annealing. Normally one is advised to DUMP them into the water - very seldom the opposite. Why would you NOT want to dump the brass? I must say, I am no expert, and have never done this yet.
From the little bit I learnt about metallurgy I seem to remember that if you let the material being heat-treated cool down by itself you are not really achieving anything - the molecules will just re-arrange themselves as they were before. That is unless you place them under some kind of force while cooling down - like a magnetic field to align them.
If one dumps them into the water, or cools them down by any other means other than normal subjection to room temperature, only then does one get a real change in the molecular structure. This happens because the structure is "frozen" as it was at that specific temperature before you dumped it. Or are those second year material strengths courses I did 15 years ago faded from memory too much? Or did the wrong stuff stick in memory? This wasn't my favourite subject, although I have often had thoughts of kicking my own butt for that!

on August 11, 1998 at 19:14:26, you said:
"Had a good posting written up twice and my AOL went tits up twice. Any good suggestions on another internet service!!"
I've seen this statement more than once here on the Roster. One solution for this would be to write your entry in a Word Processor like Russ, where one could also use the spell-checker ( Scott - HINT! HINT! HINT! :-) ) That way you can save it and just cut-and-paste again into the Roster.

Oh yes, almost forgot: SPR
It is only being released here on September 18 - I will HAVE to go see it. Haven't been to the movies for quite a long time. Not sure if I should take the wife along - 6 months pregnant. It might be too much for her! I think it will upset her too much. ( And of course then she can't see me cry - as that seems to be the order of the day :-) )

Marius Ferreira <>
Pretoria, GAUTENG, RSA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 17:10:21 (EDT) 

To Torsten: Thanks for the heads up! Im securely entrenched in my bunker, deep within Chateau Taylor. The parapets have been well stocked, too. You realize, of course, when you send me a sample of said item, Im going to have to do a review of said item on a type of firearm Ive already beleaguered here on the Duty Roster. (( sigh )) On the Nauga pup -- be careful what you feed it. They have a very sensitive diet until theyve reached their first year. It is also around this time that their hide becomes shiny and more luxurious.

To TorF: Regarding the long archery shot, all I can say is that it must have been a no-wind day. Or... maybe it was a thin-wind day. Hmmm.

Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 17:21:47 (EDT) 

Greetings from Middle Clintonia - Where the women are loose and the morals are looser.

Pat - On the ghillie,

1) Use a boonie hat with a wad of netting long enough to drape over the scope of the rifle when in firing position. Go for the Jon Bon Jovi look. (Ask Junior he'll know what I'm talking about. For us old guys it's the Farrah Fawcett look.)

2) Use a two piece set of BDU's for the uniform.

3) For a school ghillie it is okay to sew the netting on the back of the uniform and tie the burlap into the net. Make sure that the burlap isn't long enough to get caught up under your body when crawling. Have someone put the suit on then lay on thier belly, then trim around it.

4) Color is to personal taste, I prefer a mauve top, chartruse bottom and, if it after labor day, a tasteful pair of robins egg blue pumps with a matching drag bag. Seriously, the color is dependent upon the prevelent vegetation in the AO. Try to keep the artifical colors a tad light and darken it with NATURAL VEGETATION to match the area. Mix the colors up, don't look like a mono colored chewbacka!

5) Pad the knees and elbows, move the shirt pockets to the side/sleeves and you are on the way. The first ghillie is an experiment, the second is better and after three of four you figure it out.

6) It is hard to build one wrong! You and Junior are smart so sit down, plan it, then execute!

Tell junior to work on range estimation with the mil dots.

Sniff!!! A new generation of snipers.....I'm gonna ....cry.... hold me Rick. Tell me we're not old and forgotten....

I'm gonna eat a twinkie and lift my spirits...

Gooch is out.

gooch <>
Sherwood, AR USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 20:40:46 (EDT) 

Gooch, who is Jon Bon Jovi? and what do you guys see in Farrah Fawcett? she is so old...

Marius, The story I got on annealing case mouths is if you heat them up then rapidly cool them by quenching in water or oil you will actually do the opposite of what you want and make them hard and brittle.

so is there any verdict on bipods? I sure like the design of the Parker Hale, but if it wobbles...

gee I can't hardly wait, only three more years until McMillan delivers my A3
Rich <>
WA USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 20:57:26 (EDT) 

Ladies (and Gentlemen): I too will be off-line for the next one to two weeks. I've got some shooting to do.

Gooch: The "women are loose"? Time to rebarrel; swap out the lightweight sporter for a target barrel. Also, consider adding a couple of inches. That ought to "tighten up" your groups, and you'll find you'll be able to maintain the kind of "accuracy" you desire much, much longer than before!!!

In the alternative, hold hard and squeeze!

Bain out.

Mr. Bain <>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 21:16:44 (EDT) 

To all,
Can someone give any credence (or otherwise) to the rumour that synthetic stocks damage hearing by transmitting recoil
to the inner ear via the skeleton?

Does anyone with a Leupold Mark 4 M3 have anything positive
or negative to say about it? I plan to buy one but down under these items are expensive. I would appreciate any first hand field based comments.

Does anyone else out there find the Remington M700 PSS DM
magazine less than positive to lock in?

cheers all

Darryl Todd
wa Australia - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 21:44:16 (EDT) 

Gooch - Remember McArthur, we'll "just fade away". Not a bad description of a ghillie suit for an NG type guy.

Add to those thoughts on the Ghillie Suit - Once you think you have enough burlap on your ghillie, remove atleast half of it! Also, rather use knee and elbow pads when you think you may need protection rather than filling up the uniform with padding. With padding and canvas that sucker is stiff and hard to move around in as well as pack. I rather question a sniper that has to crawl so much that he needs all that protection in the first place. In most areas a sniper can use defilade to his advantage and move in a less tiring manner. Once the sniper is in worm's eye view mode, his route selection is very limited. On the burlap color, recommend that you buy natural color sold in most WAL MARTs. This color is very light but has the advantage of allowing for such upgrades as soaking in strong coffee and tea to give a very natural color. Other natural colors can be produced by boiling different materails and soaking the burlap. WATCH your skin! Can take awhile to get rid of the color. Primary camo on the ghillie is natural materails that are changed with the movement.

Parker Hale Bipod - You're paying too much for the name and they are not stable. Spend the money on the short cant adjustable Harris Bipod. Just remember, any bipod must be in a neutral position to shoot accurately. Tension fore or aft will cause a shift in recoil impulse. This will open up your group and once your group becomes bigger than your target, you will miss the target sooner or later. Usually when you need to hit it the most.

Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 21:54:35 (EDT) 

Darryl - Leupold M3, Good TACTICAL SCOPE however you look at it. Unless you are needing 1/4 moa adjustments.

Mistah Bain Sah!! You have offended my honah!! I'll see you in court sah!! Don't you know that snipers spend long hours penitrating the bush, in the prone position, with large barrelled weapons to shoot hot loads!!!

gooch <>
USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 22:11:42 (EDT) 

To Darryl: Why? Why did you double post? WHY? Is this an Australian vendetta? What's the deal??? Here it is: I have to go into FTP; transfer (wait for eternity) the Roster to my machine. Open it up. Remove the OFFENDING DOUBLE, TRIPLE, OR QUADRUPLE POST! Save it. Transfer it back (wait another !#%@# eternity). Reload it from the Internet, to double check and make sure it works (wait yet ANOTHER !#%@#@#$ eternity!!!).

In short, I'm about ready to make it open season on any of you guys who HAVE MAJOR BRAIN DUMPS AND SUBMIT DOUBLE POSTS! Maybe your colleagues would enjoy a little "live" game, eh?

One month. Can we go ONE MONTH without some !#%# idiot screwing up and double posting??? IS THAT TOO !#%@# MUCH TO ASK???!!! Jesus H. Christ!!! (R. Lee Ermey style)
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 22:15:59 (EDT) 

Can you guys believe the statement Rick made!

Not bad for a NG guy?!

I'll have you know that when You were in Vietnam sleeping in the mud and lancing cysts I was watching Star Trek and delivering papers!

Just because I think I'm hot shit doesn't mean I'm not!!!

You think that experience means everything don't you?

Wait, this post didn't go well. Uhh....Wait...

You and Bain are plotting aren't you! I'll show you, I'll turn off my monitor...

tyhri now yoi canr se3 mi

fuuch out.
They call me Mistah Gooch! <>
Grrwood, ARAR USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 22:38:53 (EDT) 

Bain: Have fun!!!!!!

Torsten: Stop sending the babes, 450 is too much for an old guy like me!

Russ: Gonna call when I send this......

All: Source for GOOD 7.62X51 military ammo for a young-un that just bought an M1A, (I'm so proud I could bust)!

Gooch: Yer right about the insect look on those binocs, have some M-22s and they sure do look purty when ya see them at night!

It seems that all of the LE ammo I got shoots low, (the Hornady TAP stuff). Is it me or has anyone else noticed this? Depity Dave???????
Gramps <>
Yonder, USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 22:53:46 (EDT) 

Gentlemen, Gentlemen: Have we leave of our senses again!!! Must be that gol-dang full moon again! And they call us all lunatics! Damn Look out side, It really is a full moon tonite and it affected Mistah Gooch. Call those men with the butterfly nets!!

About your Leopold Mk 3 scope. One of the best in the world. Perfect tracabillity, and crystal clear. Well worth the dinars and shekels and geld you spend for it. Oh go ahead go for it, You won't regret it. You may after your wife finds out, but what the hell, she'll find some other reason to get pissed at you, so go ahead and get it and tell her "AL" said it was OK. (Just don't give her my address.)

Russ: Lets catch that perp who keeps on double posting and bolt his scrotum to and oak chair. Sorry, its just the full moon!


Al Ostapowicz <>
Starry Starry NIght, Ohio USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 23:17:57 (EDT) 

And what about those Parker Style bipods. Are they the same as the Versa Pods which you can order from McMillan. You are right about the stableness of the Harris and I like mine a lot. Are the Versa Pods that much better?

Darryl: We would answer your question about hearing loss, but we can't hear you!

And Gooch: Oh what a man!!!! Only to be able to find someone like you with robin egg blue pumps in the woods. Tee-hee-hee, goodness, goodness, I say with a limp wrist.

Al Ostapowicz <>
Starry Starry Night #2 in Moon Drenched, Ohio USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 23:32:58 (EDT) 

Gooch - Did I really say that? Must be Al's Full Moon effect! AL are you causeing this?

Love that M3A!! Can't think of a single reason, other than can't afford, not to own that scope. Course I could be just a little prejudiced towards that scope!

Al - I really don't know about the Versa Pod. Never used it or even seen it in real life. The only fault I have had with the Harris is a few have broken at the head where it mates with the fore stock. Of course this could be ham fisted military types causing this to occur.

Darryl - Don't know about hearing loss with syn stocks. I do know that when I retired from the military I was authorized free hearing aids. Don't know if shooting syn stocks caused it or if being flung through the air from a few close proximity explosions caused it.

Russ - Your prozac man your prozac!!

Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Friday, September 04, 1998 at 23:59:05 (EDT) 

Gooch: Were you looking for a supply source for Hornady TAP ammo?
Mike O'Brien <>
Middle of Nowhere, WY USA - Saturday, September 05, 1998 at 00:05:49 (EDT) 
To Mister Tibbs... er, uh... Mistah Gooch: Which is your favorite Star Trek episode? When Spock beats the crap out of his in-room monitor/communicator? When Kirk fires, hires, then re-fires Mr. Scott? Or what about when Kirk met Lizardman? (The latter is how I first learned to make dynamite -- who says television isn't educational?)

To Rick: I "did" take my Prozac. You should see me on the days I forget. Remind me to tell you about the time I was riding my motorcycle, and some assinine female type cut me off with her pickup truck, and I had to do some very quick and fancy weight distribution on the left foot peg, and then I caught up to her at the next stoplight, and started to explain, rather loudly, the error of her ways, and she rolled up her window, thinking that she could avoid listening to me, and I took my fist and... well, um... yeah... we'll get drunk and I'll tell you all about it. Honestly, I'm MUCH calmer now.

On bipods: If you're a fan of the Parker-Hale model, but not a fan of the price, allow me to recommend the Chinese, made-with-prison-labor M-85 from Model One Imports. At $60 or so (I bought two of them at the Indy 1500 gunshow earlier this year), they're DARN sturdy, and you're not paying for the price. Hey, you KNOW they're made right, because the hired help gets executed if they screw up. Another recommendation from Scott, for which I'm glad. Let's see... to date, he's turned me onto B&L Elite 4000 scopes, M-85 bipods, and most recently the Nikon 4x scope. What a swell guy!!!
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Saturday, September 05, 1998 at 02:48:37 (EDT) 

Mike: It was Russell Taylor that was looking for TAP, I gave him the info but he won't listen, you try.....

Gooch: Robins egg blue pumps, I knew the Murines were funny but really........

Al: Scrotum nailed to a chair, my kind of guy....

Russ: Are ya awake???????

Rick: Gonna need ya to e-mail me again about building gillie suits, I cleaned out my files and you were in them, (I'm old ya know)!!!!

Gramps <>
Sunny SC, USA - Saturday, September 05, 1998 at 09:44:33 (EDT) 

Russ: You have to stop beating around the bush,tell us how you really feel about double posts !Don't hold back !

How's the .338/.378 coming along ?Has your load development produced satisfactory results so far ?Is the H50BMG powder producing the velocity you are looking for ?

By the way,I ordered a Richard's Microfit Benchmark stock for my 6.5 x 55mm project.I didn't mind the look of the Tactical model but thought the latter would be more versatile for hunting/target shooting.

Several of my shooting friends have the Wildcat thumb hole sporter model.Up til then I'd never heard of them before.The laminate on their stocks is so attractive I just knew I had to have one.

I guess you could say that Richard's is probably one of those companies that although they build great product,their name recognition isn't as widely known as some of their competitors.

Gooch: STOP beating around the bush !Hey,just remember its o.k. to fire hot loads as long as your not firing any blanks.I understand that this may cause a shortened barrell life.By the way,all you Snipers out there better make sure that your triggers are adjusted properly or you might have an accidental discharge !

Jeff B. <>
Truro, N.S. Canada - Saturday, September 05, 1998 at 10:37:00 (EDT) 

On the blue pumps. It not after labor day yet!!! Go with the Off-white flats!! Earth tones are in as are the smaller, faster calibers (22-243 etc). After labor day with the advent of larger game seasons, I suggest the larger calibers, oh 30-06 and the like. Facial cammy this year I tried to stay with the cammo compact, but the max factor line is intriguing.

On bipods - I concur with sister Boucher on the short Harris with the built in tiltability. I use the standard issue Harris w/o tiltability and do just fine. Takes only a second to adjsut legs or dig, dig, dig one in a tiny bit in the dirt.

Ricky told me a story about him, a friend of his and a bidet over in Saudi. Tsk tsk ricky. It'll be puiblished inthe next Cosmo.

Gooch out and feeling manly today.

Sometimes this SC is just too much fun!
gooch <>
Banjo twang!, Soowee! USA - Saturday, September 05, 1998 at 11:33:05 (EDT) 

Say Hey.
Lot of info. on this page but it seems to fall into two areas. Stuff I can't afford and subjects of interest for the 2% of shooters in the world who can dope the wind by eye or satalite at 1600yrds.

If you want to try racing cars do you sell the kids and buy an INDY car? NO! Enter the Savage question. $300 barrel,use a $300 scope=$600 test bed. Try it, if you like it then step up but not till you are equal or better the the equipment.

If we fail to learn from history we are doomed to repeat the same old mistakes. Well sorta. Make it Simple, trained people to use the trick stuff are hard to come by in protracted conflict. I could not pick up a fallen mans M41/300 zoomer and hit the horizon as well as my battle gun could with all the details you need to know. Enter the history part. #4T Enfield, when zeroed ant Tommy could twist the well placed and marked knobs, yes top and left just like you pay extra for on Leupold's Mk.X-25X75X80mm GPS, and then hit some thing. Made of brass sewer pipe this same scope on the L42A1 has ranging klick up that actualy work even for me to 800yrds. Actually it works best out to 400 but then you get your Robar 50 years old and do better.

The point befor I get too much windage here. Is there any body else out there who shoots these older guns and would like to chat about the or are we doomed to bench race imaginary or dream guns.

Lets start here.
1. G-43/Zf4, I have a shot drift on the 3rd. shot. Seems to put two on the aim point the pull the last 2'' ridht. Any comments or ideas on this. 1960's steel case ammo.

2.Sav.110FP/ART-MPC with the standard stock when draged over hill and dale can put two cold shots in the hole at 200yrds but throws the next two high right about 2'' but in the same hole? Roll my own for this one,IMR4064 etc.

3.Mosi 91/30PU, now this one is fun, a Sharp Shooters gun at best, can hit the bottom of a soda can at 100yrs with yellow tip surplus 180g bullets but when I roll 148g fmj .310 bullets in Lapua brass the hills are safe? Any help here?

I personaly have some 400yrd confirmed shots but I am in no way a marksman or even a target shooter. This is for fun and sadly at a time in my life when I start to hit stuff my hair keeps falling out and getting in the way.


Monterey Jack <MontereyJack@kmenterprises,com>
Calif. USA - Saturday, September 05, 1998 at 13:47:30 (EDT) 


I haven't tried the Hornady TAP yet, But, you may want to consider that it's not that it shoots low, what happens when you get OLD is it's hard to keep it up.

Get more rest and take your viagra.

Stay Safe!
Depity Dave <>
Just leaving for some dove hunting in, Restful Weest Virginia USA - Saturday, September 05, 1998 at 16:58:49 (EDT) 

I'm new to Moly bullets and hoping for data for 175 sierra BTHP to start with
Mike Miller <DMMDNLN@AOL>
Berkeley, Calif USA - Saturday, September 05, 1998 at 19:20:30 (EDT) 
To Jeff B: I'm having this love/hate thing with my .338/378 Weatherby Magnum. I'd "love" to finish it, but I "hate" working on my gunsmith's truck -- a 1967 Dodge Power Wagon -- which is "the arrangement." He does my gunsmithing, I do work on his truck. I hate trucks. So, my motivation isn't quite into the project. Anyway, the pillars are cut (brass valve guides) and just need epoxied into the stock. Bedding is the only thing left to do. Then, it's just a matter of mounting the scope and starting load development. (I keep having recurring visions of The Guns of Navarone... you know, those guys with the white hoods, gloves, and goggles? Bad... BAD... got to put such things out of my mind.) Believe me, when I get it together, and if it doesn't blow up (which means me with it), you guys will be the first to know. Load data will be included.

Glad you ordered the Richards stock. I actually ordered the Tactical... they delivered a Culbertson. I didn't notice for two months (during which time I'd pretty well "bought" the thing, by working on the stock). Still, in hindsight... for "this" gun... I'm glad I have the stock that I do. I'll be including it in my upcoming stock review. You guys who don't mind a little work with sandpaper, you're missing the untold deal of the year by not getting a Richards stock. When you see my stock (I'll include photos with my article), you're going to say... "He only paid $99 for that stock?!" Oh, and he delivers a bit sooner (i.e., this century) than does McMillan. Not knocking McMillan on their product, though... I love their stocks... but I just LOVE a laminated stock -- they're strong AND beautiful.

No, Jeff... Richards is a small, unheard-of company. Good. Keeps their deliveries pretty well on time. Shhhhh... don't tell anyone else about them, okay?

On bipods: I notice a (partial) picture of my M-85 bipods on the current Precision Shooting magazine. Concerning a "neutral" firing position (Rick?) with bipods, how do you know you're at the same "neutral" position for each shot? I'm not trying to be silly, but really, how do you know -- shot to shot -- that you're at top-dead-center for each shot? Argh! This consistency stuff can drive a guy nuts!

To Monterey Jack: I shoot the old stuff (well, custom guns built on "old" actions). They're cheap, but they work. On the "test bed" idea. Of course, "I" like it... but you'll be assaulted for it because, oh gee, it's not a REMINGTON action -- that is, it isn't "round" -- and you can't throw the thing on a lathe and true the thing up. Shame, shame. How could you even SUGGEST a Savage?!!! (Hey, I've done it on two Savages, and it works for ME! As always, your mileage may vary.) On your 110FP Tactical load -- just "MY" two cents, but... IMR 4064 shot like ca-ca in mine. What other powders did you try? If you haven't done "serious" work with Varget and N-140, give them a try. You might see good things happen with 43.0 grains of Varget or 41.0 grains of N-140 (with Sierra 168 Match Kings). In general, we're not a "benchrest" crowd here. Many of us are strapped for cash and look for inexpensive ways to outshoot the big boys. We all have different income levels, and we're all interested in what is working for the other guy. So jump in and contribute. "Sin boldly, for Grace is abundant."

To Mike Miller: You can hope all you want, Mike, but until you tell us if you're using your 175s in a .308 Winchester, .300 Winchester Magnum, or a .30-06 Springfield, and what the barrel length is, and how far you plan on shooting... well, you're probably not going to get much "specific" help. Let us know what you're using and we'll try to help you. Sure, I could presume you're using your moly-coated 175s in a .308 Winchester out to 1,000 yards... but I'd rather hear exactly what your situation is.

To all: I already knew of Roger Johnston's demise, but Dave Brennan wrote a fairly nice obituary in the current issue of PS. I'd spoken to Roger on a couple of occasions, over the phone. Nice guy. He could easily run your phone bill up, but you never seemed to mind because he was so enjoyable to talk to. He was an easy-spoken man, very intelligent, and very friendly.

Update on the ".35 Bear Buster" -- I now have 50 rounds of shoulder-breaking .35 Bear Buster rounds, ready to run through the rifle; 53.0 grains of AA 2520 under a Sierra .35 caliber 225-grain Game King in a .444 Marlin case necked down to .35 caliber. The entire rifle weighs, I'm guessing, 7.5 pounds, including scope. Don't try this at home, kiddies. Total cost for the Enfield #4 Mk 1 action, Ramline stock, Wilson (Midway) barrel, Nikon 4x scope, and Leupold mounts and base: about $240. Gunsmithing was free (refer to truck comment earlier). Load data should ("should") mimic .35 Whelen loads. Stay tuned.
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 03:06:34 (EDT) 

Gooch: cammo
What a brave man you are. Thanks to you I am also willing to step out of the closet. One of my favorite little tricks is the liberal use of a Avon product called "Skin so Soft" It is strong enough for a man but made for a woman. Works great as mosquito repelant. I like to think
when the aroma goes downwind and hits enemy noses that split second of confusion gives me the edge I need!
Steve <>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 04:26:25 (EDT) 
To Jeff B. (again): Here's an article written by Dan Lilja in which he tests the relationship between barrel lengths and velocities using a .338/378 Weatherby Magnum.
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 06:06:24 (EDT) 
Depity Dave: You have now taken Gooch's title of mean man, (since he's so in touch with his feminine side now), but be warned, incoming from the teenaged bride!!!!!!!

Russ: Title of your last e-mail??????? I resemble that remark.......

Out here and off to bed!!!!!!!
Gramps <>
Viagra City, USA - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 08:33:12 (EDT) 

To Monterey Jack: nagant
I have a m-39 Finnish nagant. The first load I tried was the 174 .311 Sierra matchking and imr4895 powder in lapua cases with winchester primers muzzle vel. was 2600 f.p.s. This load gives me consistent 3/4 m.o.a. from a clean barrel. I paid $85 for this rifle.
Steve <>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 09:14:16 (EDT) 
Say Hey
Russell your Savage will stand the test and save the bucks too. The only thing that I would change would be to get the short action. Hey! Thats only a $360 upgrade and I have several people who would buy my long action as they are sure it's been tricked out nomater how many times I tell them it's stock.

Steve lots of good deals on M-39's, if Star Line get some brass out soon??? I'm getting pulled 147g Bulgarian bullets for $8 per. 100, at .310'' they also work in .303 Enfields.

So? Who else is shooting G-43/Zf4's?? The 8mm has a great history in sharpshooting.

Monterey Jack <montereyjack@kmenterprises>
Prundale, Calif. USA - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 11:54:06 (EDT) 

Russ: I read the article a short time ago.I thought it was a great piece.I was impressed that the .338/.378 could achieve what I consider fantatic velocities with the 300 gr. Sierra Match King.

Can you imagine slugging around a shouder fired weapon with abarrell length between 35"-42" ? Definitely a bench gun if I've ever heard of one !
Jeff B. <>
Truro, N.S. Canada - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 12:07:17 (EDT) 

I'am down at the office so of course I had to check out the roster. Thanks for the info on the Ghillie. I must say I'am surprised to know that you have a tender side and that your such a fashon expert!! I do love the Farrah look, these guys need to see the Play Boy issue from about 20 years ago WOW...Now there was a woman!!

If you dont want to lay out the bucks for the MK-4 the new 3.5X10 Long Range is a good alternative for about $400 less. I have one and its great!!
Pat <>
USA - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 13:52:49 (EDT) 

To Monterey Jack: I dont see any advantage, personally, in going to a shorter action just for the sake of going to a shorter action. My shooting isnt good enough to appreciate whatever advantage Id get from an action that flexed less. As for cycling time... if a micro-tenth of a second is going to save my life in a confrontation -- well, something has already gone DRASTICALLY wrong! However, if it was today, and I was in the market for another rifle from Savage, Id probably go with a short-action.

On the Mosin-Nagant: Surgical secret of the century (Finnish models, that is).

To Jeff: I agree with you. However, I wish Id have gone with a 32-inch barrel instead of a 30-inch. Oh, well... Ill make do. As for carrying around the heavy stuff (something I know about, trust me), Butler Creek makes a version of sling that is like a shock absorber -- I have one on Bwana, my heavy-barreled .416 Remington Magnum... which, oh by the way, is in a laminated Richards thumbhole stock.

Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 19:18:03 (EDT) 

OK so I forgot some important info. sorry about that. Lets try again. Help with 308 win, in once fired Fed brass, 175 Sierra Molly coated. Who has loaded them. What powder to use. O.A.L.. I have alot of IMR4895 but have had little luck with 175's non molly so why bother with molly with this powder. It sure works great with 168's. I have Varget, and IMR 4064 on hand and looking for a load to shoot in, for both my M14 and M24. Also is it my imagination or has Rem's quality gone to the dogs. Last years PSS had a bad bbl. This years has a bad trigger not heavy pull but bad! Thanks for any and all help
Mike Miller <DMMDNLN>
USA - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 20:25:37 (EDT) 
From his hide Sarge says:

OK some of you wanted to know how the search for a "hunting" load with the Sierra 165 gr GameKing for my 110FP went. Well here goes:
As per my exalted Editor-in-Chief, who, when it comes to 110FP's hasn't steered me wrong yet, I bought some Accurate Arms AA2520. The Sierra 4th edition Reloading Manual lists this powder at 43.5 grains as their load of choice for hunting with the 165GK. Being prudent I started my loads at 41.5 then 42.0,42.5,43 and 43.5. At 100yds the 42.0 shot almost as well, I won't argue, as any of my handloaded match rounds! 5 shot group was right at 0.73", as measured with calipers, outside edge to outside edge. NOT BAD for a "hunting" round! Using my Mildot Master and the ballistic table I have for my 168gr match loads (next range session I'll chrono this load and get the correct ballistic table printed up)I dialed in and proceded to decimate the soda can population, that someone had left, at 200yds. Not to shabby! This load is a definate "keeper"!

Sarge slips back to his hide and waits.

Sarge <>
Area 51, NM USA - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 20:55:07 (EDT) 

Russ - You hit it with the consistency thing. Do the same each time, shot after shot. It is more of a feel than anything else. I "pull" the stock to my shoulder at the same time "pushing" with my toes. It is a habit and "feels" right when it comes together. It doesn't feel as if the weapon is trying to pull away from me or trying to push into to me on its own. Sorry I can't give you a better description, you know how all that touchy feely crap is hard to explain.

GOOCH - Don't you dare relate that lie! It's all lies guys, don't believe that evil Gooch!

Reference recycled actions - Some of the best and most durable weapons are made on "old" actions. Never discount them. You would be doing yourself a great disservice. Myself I like the 03A4, Confederate, depends on what your tastes are and what you are used to. The Enfield was more popular due to less jamms and ease of maintenance. Only the Marines really liked the Springfield 03. The Army used mostly the Enfields. As far as the Nagant goes, it is still seeing action as a sniper rifle in many parts of todays world and to under estimate it's accuracy is a one way ticket home in a body bag. The carbine model is NOT a fun gun to shoot though!

Gramps - Did you say you lost that babbling on the Ghillie Suit? I'll have to sit down and write one on a word processor so you can save it to a regular file. What do you use on your computer?

Hold hard guys or it will be a long night!
Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 21:21:29 (EDT) 

I have a problem: I was shooting my AR-15, when one of the shells became a dud. The bolt carrier is stuck in the stock and the bolt assembly is still locked around the shell in the throat of the barrel. I cannot get the bolt carrier to come out of the stock nor will the T-handle pull the bolt carrier back. Open to any suggestions before I have to pay a visit to the gunsmith and PAY him to fix it.

P.S. Please Help
Pickett <>
lost in the hills of, TN USA - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 21:54:41 (EDT) 

I have fixed my AR-15 problem. Thanks for the quick responses.
Pickett <>
hills of , TN USA - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 22:23:49 (EDT) 
Depity Dave: Are ya alright after the incoming?

Rick: Check e-mail......

Torsten: Got walker, paid many $$$$$$$$$$ under the table to customs for it, it had better be worth it!!!!!!! :-)

Russ: DS or SH??????? Your call.......

Bain: I think I sent you e-mail???????

Gooch: Need some of that skin stuff, what's the price????

Out here

Gramps <>
Over Yonder, USA - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 23:08:13 (EDT) 

Thanks for putting such relevant info in one place. Way down here I have to rely on any info I can find to stay up to date. I am a firearms instructor for the NZ Police and especially interested in long range shooting. I would appreciate any info on Law Enforcement Sniper/Counter Sniper training. Thanks
Dave JONES <>
Wellington, New Zealand - Sunday, September 06, 1998 at 23:24:36 (EDT) 
Mike Miller: For 175gr molyed MKs, I've gotten excellent results with VV N140, and N540. You mentioned having an M-24. Is the barrel 11.2 twist? I'll assume so.

Anyway, I would start w/ 43.0 gr of N140 and increase in 0.5gr increments up to 44.5gr. This is close to the edge if you look at the literature, however, moly's presence is supposed to decrease pressure, so an increase in charge wt. is necess. to recapture any velocity loss. I've gone to 44.5 w/ N140 and 540 and seen no signs whatsoever of high pressure (ie. primer flattening or cratering).

Also, bullet seating depth is very important. For some reason, any Sierra match bullets I've ever worked w/ have given best accuracy when seated 0.010 inches off the lans. That's been the case with .308, 300WM, and w/ 6.5/08. 190, 175, 168, 155, in .30 cal. and 140, 142 in 6.5mm. ALL work at 0.010 in. off lans.

Also, you mentioned 4895 as one of your powders. Is it Hogdon or IMR. Try 41.0 or 42.0gr w/ 4895. And, try VV N135 (41.0gr ) w/ either the 168s or 175s and see what happens. Its burn rate is very close to the 4895s.

The N140 and 135 meters pretty well, too.

Darryl: I agree four thousand percent w/ Pat about one of Leupold's LR scopes. I just got one recently and it's like any of Leupold's scopes. In a word.. magnificent !! Thing is, Mk4 M3 is , well, Al already said it. Either way you can't lose, really.

To All: Seems like every time I read in the Roster, I get more psyched up about tactical/sniper/field shooting. I'm new at this but what I've done so far, I've loved. And so far means: 1. Educate myself. Read, read, read. Precision Shooting, Tactical know.
2. Learning to handload ammo to fit a particular rifle. Great fun.
3. Got a couple of bolt guns and shoot them whenever I can (not nearly as much as I'd like, naturally).
4. Shot in my very first tactical match approx. 3 weeks ago. No. 2 is coming up in 2 weeks.
5. I get to spend time with Hook Boutin. That's like Santa Clause and God rolled into one.. great man.

So, that's where this little moly huffing, moe-foe sits amidst the spinning spiritual vortex that is, well, how should one say it-- shootin' at thangs wif uh fat barrelled gun thet's fer away..

Now, I read about ghillie suit helpful hints, opinions about binocs, articles about equipment, reviews about training facilities, and other, I'll call it, snipercountry-related things, and I want to learn and do other stuff. You know, not only learn to be a marksman, but participate in the other aspects of this craft.

So, somebody point me at another aspect of this to look into. Am I making any sense? Or is this just a touch of sleep deprivation psychosis rearing its ugly little head?

Hey, guys, all this stuff is fascinating, really. And I am hungry to learn more. That's all.

Bedtime, boys and girls..
Jeff A. <>
Cordite Buzz, Ga USA - Monday, September 07, 1998 at 01:39:20 (EDT) 

Hi !

I was in a reserve training exercise last weekend and saw some new sniping gear.

The Finnish Army has now officially acquired Sako TRG-41 sniping rifles in 338 Lapua Magnum. This rifle had the military acceptance marks (A "Tower" stamped all over the parts and supplies) and a military log book for the amount of rounds that have been shot trough the barrel.

The scope was a Leupold Mark 4 M3 x10 with A 338LM-specific cam !!! The cam was graduated out to 1200 meters. I think that they will use mildots out to 1500 meters. (I haven´t calculated whether this is possible with the ammo, but 1200 meters seem to be a little bit short range for 338 LM.)-> If there is enough money, any ammuniton specific cam for M3 can be had. Most probably cams for the 308/175 ammo will arrive soon. Another question is whether Leupold will sell them to civilians. In a PC-world this is not 100% sure which is too bad.

The rifle had a blackened barrel, but I don´t know whether it was a molybden or stainless barrel. Probably molybden. Other additions were a muzzle brake with threads for a suppressor (Army has not chosen a model yet, most probably it will be a BR-Tuote´s reflex-suppressor). A Parker-Hale -type bipod is included as are emergency sights. This model had that version of sights that are not attached to the rifle but are in the pocket of the shooter, or in the field 600 meters behind you :-). Too bad as there is another model available from Sako that is attached to the rifle and which can be folded up quickly.

A night-vision that clamps in front of the rifle is available too, the model is unknown to me, but the old TAK-85, Sniping Rifle Model 85 uses a Simrad 250 add-on.

Received my Nightforce 5.5-22x56 scope with mil-dots last week. It really is HUGE, weighs around two pounds, is 19.5 inches long, and is 2.72 inches thick at the objective. I think that Butler Creek doesn´t produce their flip-up scope covers for scopes with a O.D. larger than around 2.5 inches. What gives ? Where could I buy flip-up scope covers for this scope ? Any other suggestions ?

BTW I know this scope is not the best possible one for a 308 sniping rifle but it cost only 50% of what a Leupold Mark 4 M1 x10 with mil-dots cost here. Another thing is that 56 mm objectives really are usefull in Finland during winter time (that is 7-9 months per year) and I can not afford any mil-spec night vision scopes. On the other hand this scope is a very usefull addition to a multi-purpose 338 LM which I may acquire a little later on. At this time I do not have a proper rifle for it but I´ll wait until Sako brings out their model 75 in a left handed version. This should occur next year. If not, then I´ll buy a custom made rifle from a local artisan. In the mean time I´ll shoot with my friends rifles.

Good shooting

Hexa <>
Helsinki, Finland - Monday, September 07, 1998 at 03:34:03 (EDT) 

I didnt really double post, firing from down-under to
up-over, what with the curviture of the earth and the
El Nino effect to dope for...
Darryl Todd <>
Australia - Monday, September 07, 1998 at 03:34:06 (EDT) 

JuSt wHaT DiD YoUr tEeNaGe wIfE PuT In tHaT ChArGe >

sTaY SaFe!
DePiTy dAvE <>
ReCoVeRiNg iN, TrAnQuIl wEsT vIrGiNiA UsA - Monday, September 07, 1998 at 09:11:16 (EDT) 

Russ, On the long vs short action I can throw three advantages of the shorter action into the fray.

1) Overall length of the weapon is kept shorter with same length of barrel or you can go with a longer barrel and keep the overall length the same as long action. A shorter weapon is not a big deal to bench resters and the like but to a tactical shooter is makes a difference.

2) Feeding of short action rounds (.308/.223 etc) through a long action reciever/mag box gets interesting sometimes. Not uncommon to short stroke a long action or have the rounds get cock-eyed in the box. Most of us single load, but in the case of snipers working in a defensive situation or in CT/CQB type stuff where a follow-up shot(s) may be required you may need to use the mag box. This cost my partner a shot in the Canadian Forces match last month.

3) Longer bolt requires some shooters to move thier head when working the bolt. Once again not a problem for most but for Military and LE guys it could be (concealment and followup shots)

THese are problems we find with the M24 as it is based on a long action using a short action round (7.62mm). Army wanted this so they could set up some M24's for the .300 win Mag.

Skin so soft is good for sand flea's also. Ask anyone who lives in the Carolina's or has worked at Parris Island. Get it through the Avon lady.

Trivia - What is an Avon round? No fair Rick!

Gooch out.
Gooch <>
Sherwood, AR USA - Monday, September 07, 1998 at 12:36:16 (EDT) 

One more thing on Skin So Soft. Get a spray bottle, make a 50/50 mix of SSS (Hmmm... Scout Sniper School?) and rubbing alcohol. Spray on resulting solution for the ultimate in bug juice and skin lotion. Kind of greasy though, but it works.

USA - Monday, September 07, 1998 at 12:46:02 (EDT) 

I am new to the game and have taken the time to read all the recent postings. As seems the general feeling I will buy the best scope I can afford. To be clear though, if I am planning to shoot .308 Win and wish to do so out to 1000 yards what is the minumum elevation adj I can get away with, is 51 in enough?
Rick M <>
Ottawa, Ont Canada - Monday, September 07, 1998 at 14:13:14 (EDT) 
Wow! This post is really becoming an international post. I think its great, to learn what the other shooters are doing on a worldwide basis!
Dave Jones: Welcome Aboard! Just keep reading these posts and we'll answer most of the questions you have. We are all Fountains of Knowledge.

Hexa: I do believe that Butler Creeek does make Scope covers of the 56mm scopes. I have them on my Sprignfield Armory 2nd Generation scopes and the scope bells are 56mm. Good Luck!

Gooch: In answer to your trivia question, the answer is "a pair of 38s". OOOOOOOOOhhhh Gooch, you are still my man!

Darryl: No excuse of double double posting. Russ has the oak chair and bolt all ready for you. Oceans won't keep him away, so encase those jewels, change your address, and leave the country!!

OK, now for " Al's Gun Project of the Month". I have had several police departments inquire about the 30/338 and informed me that they were looking for a spectacular long range testicle (Darryl - that was for your benefit) that's tactical rifle and they also asked how it compares to a 300 Win Mag. So here is my opinion and the discussion is open. It is my humble opiniion that if reloading is not a concern, I would go with the 30/338 specifically that it is inherently more accurate than the 300 Win Mag. I have personally tested both and have found that to correct. Although the 30/338 has less powder capacitythan the 300 Win Mag, the neck is slightly longer and this is what people say is attributable to its accuracy.
I also recommended that the rifles have a slightly faster twist than the standard 1-10. How about a 1-9 twist to accomadate the heaviest of 30 cal bullets. The velocities are about the same, because of the nearly identical powder capacities and if feel that both are capable of 3000 fps with the 190 MK Sierra, about 2900-2925 with the 200 grainers and about 2800 fps with the 220. These velocities can probably be obtained with the new H4831SC powder (thats SC for Short Cut, Not Sniper Country). With this combinations with the 30/338, 1000 yard shots can be accomplished with the bullet still hovering above the 1120 fps sound barrier level. It is not exactly a 338 Lapua, but then again we have standard Magnum bolt face size (.532). So which one would you guys build given the choice of either/or. Im open for suggestions, because based on your recommendations this is my next tactical demonstrator which I will build.

Thanks for the input!

Al Ostapowicz <>
One Horse, Two Bar Town in NE , Ohio USA - Monday, September 07, 1998 at 14:29:50 (EDT) 

10-4 On what Jeff said on the 175gr bullets. I have not shot the Sierra's yet but I have shot the Berger 175s and I have found the exact same thing with the same powder. I also used varget and it worked well with good velocity.

Jeff A.
Hows the 260 or 6.5-308 doing? Have you cronographed any loads yet? What was your Barrel length? Have you found any load that works the best yet? I'am getting ready to start putting mine togeather. You said that you used a short action. what is your OAL on the 140 MK and will they fit in the magazine ok?? Sorry for all the questions but they keep poping up(HA).

The 30-338 Is a great round. Another one you dont hear about any more is the 308 Norma Mag. it was a great long range round until the 300Win Mag came along.
Pat <>
USA - Monday, September 07, 1998 at 15:56:52 (EDT) 

Finally, I get a chance to post. I don't have a PC at home (what!?) so I have to peruse SC from work. I really need three or four hours during the day for SC recon.

Anyway, I asked (Russ I think) about Savage extractors. I haven't had any probs but they just seem a trifle delicate and I'm ham fisted you know. I just pushed out a little and it popped out but, it popped right back in easy enough. So, if everyone seems satisfied that's good enough for me.

Now, about the old stuff (older is better!) What can one do with a beater 98K? Are they cost effective to update or should I just keep it for a slash and thrust series?

O3A3 vs Enfield. I had an Enfield Mk 4 #3. (or something like that) The crown was kaput and it seemed as if 3/4" of the bore at the muzzle was as smooth as a baby's butt. I had my smith cut about 1" and recrown, install a tip off base and Redfield 3x9. After a little trigger work this rifle would shoot moa with Winchester 180 gr factory loads. I have no doubt that it would go sub-moa with good hand loads. This rifle took a deer @200yds.

My O3A3 will shoot 1.5 moa with the iron sights. I will NOT be scoping this rifle as it is too beautiful as-is. Both of these rifles kick like a mule from the prone. That is why I REALLY like my M-1.

Ahhhh the M-1. If you can see it, you can hit it. And if need be you can butt stroke the %$#& out of a bad guy and...sorry, must be the 11B talking.

On short actions: Russ, if your life really depended on the .00001 sec wouldn't your observer just whip out the gauge for cover fire? Hmmmmm...

The double posters are probably IPSC shooters.

I am going to attempt my very first ghilly (ghillie?) soon. Thanks everyone for the postings concerning construction of said ghilly (ghillie?).

I hope this coming work week will be "whine free" so I can check SC more often.

And remember, if you ain't Infantry-you ain't s***!

Roy Thomason <>
Hate the city!!, CO USA - Monday, September 07, 1998 at 16:50:23 (EDT) 

Please forgive me if my questions are rather simplistic, but it has been beat into my head that "when in doubt, find out"

In the artical "sniper gripe" in the AFJI the writer complains that the scope mounted on his rifle has a problem with a shift in zero when the paralax focus is used.

what would cause this to happen? Other than his optics being ate up.
Ferguson <>
WF, TX USA - Monday, September 07, 1998 at 18:19:07 (EDT) 

Al, check out the .300 Dakota, it is standard 06' length with a larger case diameter than the win mag (based on the .404 Jeff case). Best of all, it's non-belted and it will get that 220 a hair over 3000. JRS stocks reamers for the Dakota rounds, Hunningtons has brass.
Rich <>
WA USA - Monday, September 07, 1998 at 19:05:03 (EDT) 
As I recline comfortably (if cross legged) in my
oak chair, I wonder if any SC readers know of a
method of accurately crimping Winchester Palma
Match (.308) so they are suitable for use in a magazine.

Currently they are uncrimped and I need a way of
crimping each round equally. Any ideas?

Darryl Todd <>
Not saying anymore - Monday, September 07, 1998 at 19:38:45 (EDT) 

Ferguson - Ref the zero shift. I have been working with that scope since the mid 80s and have found the zero shift on only one scope. That scope we sent back for repair because it was obviously defective. That entire artical/letter is nonsense. All the complaints the writer made are not supported by the experience that myself and other SOTIC instructors have had over the years. We have run into a couple of stock blemishes, and have broken two stocks due to students dropping them over 500 feet during airborne infiltrations. The scopes are excellent and are not "a joke". Ask anyone who has owned them.

Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Monday, September 07, 1998 at 19:52:50 (EDT) 

To Pat, re: 6.5mm/08:
First of all, I don't mind the questions at all. I enjoy it as a matter of fact. And the 6.5 is doing beautifully. I mean, it's a recoilless joy to shoot. Accuracy is superb. TorF has been a great source of help about the loads, powder type etc.

Anyway, the barrel is a 26 inch 8 twist Blackstar Accumax II. It was chambered w/ a .260 JGS reamer. It was suggested by more than one very reliable source to go w/ an 8 twist to stabilize the 140 class bullets.

I have not chronographed any because I haven't had access to a chronograph. TorF suggested N160/RL-19 class powders would easily yield 2650ish velocities w/o any pressure signs. RL-22 or Norma MRP would give even faster vel. So far, I've tried N135, N160,Varget, and RL-22. All have given around 1/2 moa out to 300 yd. One load is going in my "keeper" file: VV 160 44.0gr behind a Sierra 142 MK seated 0.010" off lans. Another is Varget 38.0 gr. behind Berger 140 VLD seated to just touch lans. Both have produced multiple 5 and 10 shot gps measuring approx 1.25 inches or slightly less at 300 yds. Good enough..

These specs for the 142 MK and the Berger 140VLD will not allow magazine fit in the short action. However, the Sierra 140gr. MK, when seated 0.010" off lans gives an OAL of 2.765-2.768 inches that fits easily in to the SA mag. OAL measurements will vary slightly, but comparator measurements a la Stoney Point guage is dead bag on the money for base to ogive relative measurment. Yesterday, I tried the 140 MK w/ 37.0 and 37.5 gr of VV N135. At 100 yds, a 5 shot gp that looked like a .30 or .35 cal hole, I swear. At 200 yd, about 1/2 to 5/8 inch, and at 300yd, I only had 3 rds. left, but the gp measured approx 3\4 inch. I'm not kidding, man, this puppy shoots like a devel from Hell. I beleive you could cram cowshit behind wadded up tin foil and still throw strikes.

In summary( summarising ain't one of my strong suits), magazine fit w/ 140MKs, not w/ 142s or Berger 140 VLDs.

Most promising powders: NN160 , Varget, N135. N160 looking the best overall, but the Bergers like the 38.0 gr Varget load. I plan to try others,too.

I got some data from Sierra for several bullet wts. for .260 rem (or 6.5/08) that has approx 10 or so powders w/ charge wts and avg. Vel. from a 24 inch barrell. If you want , I'll try and get the info to you.

I tell you, .308 Win. is my favorite cartridge, but this one is a close, close 2nd. You're gonna love it. Please, keep me posted about your project. I wanna know how it does. And don't mind the questions at all. It's my pleasure..

Jeff A. out..
Jeff A. <>
Smyrna, Ga. USA - Monday, September 07, 1998 at 20:20:12 (EDT) 

It would appear that double tapping may be caused by
html document caching within the web browsers. On
netscape communicator the setting is edit --> preferences
--> advanced --> cache --> document cache =compare
document to network everytime.

Fred Jacobsen <>
Perth, WA Australia - Monday, September 07, 1998 at 20:33:17 (EDT) 

I believe that the problem that you are having with your cgi form is resolvable by either (depending on OS) "grep -v" for the substance of the "comments" field or adding a perl regexp to remove the posting of the same content, ie each time you add an entry, remove any posting duplicates.
also you might want to test for embedded commands / html
if you do not already.

Bernard <>
USA - Monday, September 07, 1998 at 20:44:17 (EDT) 

Hello, all... I wonder if anyone can tell me about a 303 rifle that I own.. and whether it is any good for long range shooting.. One interesting difference about this rifle from my other 303s is that it has about twice the amount of lands and grooves in the barrel... S/N is 88C8025. Marks on the side of the breech are: U.S. PROPERTY 5 No4 Mk1* That is stamped over a lighter, electro-engraving which reads: No4MK1/3(F)FTR. Barrel markings are BNP 18.5 Tons per square inch .303 2,222" In addition, on the top middle of the barrel are the two words ADANAC *SURREY* I have put an S/K scope adapter and 8 X 32 power S/K scope on it... Is there match ammo available for this rifle? What would be the most accurrate round to get for it? Thanks to anyone who can help!!!!
Andy <>
Stirling-Rawdon, Ontario Canada - Monday, September 07, 1998 at 22:04:27 (EDT) 
P.S to my first post... I forgot to mention that the 303 has been butchered, i.e. 'sporterized'... thanks, again...
Andy <>
Stirling-Rawdon, Ontario canada - Monday, September 07, 1998 at 22:39:25 (EDT) 
Darryl Todd ,
regarding your crimping the .308 Palma Match ammunition. Lee does make a Factory Crimp Die, with which you can crimp your reloads after having completely assembled them - it should work on factory ammo as well. Just be careful when you do this, as with any other process of creating/altering ammunition - SAFETY FIRST.

Fred Jacobsen,
double, or multiple, posting, or "double tapping" as you refer to it, is merely caused by clicking the SUBMIT button twice/multiple times. It has nothing to do with the HTML/cache settings of your browser.

still on the double postings. Yes, it would be possible adding CGI script for removing double/multiple posts. However, this is not quite feasible, seeing the size and number of hits on the Roster. We are already experiencing response-time problems, and do not want to add to that by searching a document of size anything between 60K ( just after archive ) to 300K ( just before archive ). We would rather just trust on our visitors to not double-post, and alternatively rely on Russ to clean them up and blow his top the same time :-) Thaks for the comments in any case - help is always welcome.

Marius <>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Tuesday, September 08, 1998 at 03:06:42 (EDT) 

vorne unten sieben, hinten oben vier!
500 Liter Kaffee nach vorne,
Sehrohr raus, Rohr eins bis vier bewässern!
Peilung, Null Null Sieben!
Rohr eins bis vier, Feuer!

Torpedo läuft .............................................

Figure this one out and you get your Panzerlied !

Ende !
Germany - Tuesday, September 08, 1998 at 06:08:25 (EDT) 

To Garry: Good work, with the AA 2520!!! I'm curious what the temperature was on the day you were shooting. I use 44.5 grains, but have noted to myself "cold weather only. I tested my loads in cold weather, and hunted with them in cold weather. It's always wise to note the temperature with your load data when you're doing the testing phase.

To Rick: Yes, describing touchy-feely stuff can be hard to do in writing -- but I think I have the idea. Many thanks. And I echo your comments on old rifles, and building rifles on those actions. Especially Mosin-Nagants -- cheap, cheap ammo, and damn accurate. Your body bag comment was "dead" on.

To Paul: The folks on the Duty Roster got your problem fixed in less than 30 MINUTES!!! Now I ask you... does this website serve our visitors' needs, or what?!!!

To Dave Jones: Welcome aboard. I'm aware that you New Zealanders have a bit of a "minor" possum problem. I'd just LOVE to come down your way and help out!!! (For our visitors who aren't keeping up on "world events," the possum is FAST becoming to New Zealand what the prairie dog has already become to our western states. Can you say "target-rich environment?" I thought that you could.) Nauga hunters, eat your hearts out!

To Hexa: I read your post very carefully and with GREAT interest... particularly, the part about using mil-dots out to 1500 yards. I'd like some SERIOUS discussion (wake up, laddies) on this. See, I plan to shoot my .338/378 at 1500 yards. I've long ago given up on using mil-dots -- I just don't think it's practical, and I've talked to others who feel the same. "Holdover dots" is one thing, but ranging is another. I plan to use topographical maps for such distances, since I'm a po' boy who can't afford light amplification by stimulated emission of radiation devices. Rick? Gooch? Mil-dots for ranging out to 1500 yards (man-sized targets)? Is this actually a practicality? Thanks for sharing, Hexa.

To Gooch: Good comments on the short- versus long-action debate. (Debate?) Well, good comments.

Speaking of insect repellant (read, "bug juice"), I was doing some research on the Internet in preparation for my May, 1998, bear hunt, and came across some stuff out of Australia that is supposed to be God's gift to woodsmen. Anyone know what it is? Try any of it? Hello???

HEY! Listen, sports fans, this is a VERY important subject. We beat ballistics to DEATH around here... but camouflage and ESPECIALLY insect repellant can make the difference between an endurable time in the bush and an unbearable one. Seriously, let's put a few days or more into the insect repellant discussion. Tactically speaking, it should be of low or no scent, and not leave your skin shiny. And as for camouflage... what say you? Sticks or compact? (Be serious... this really is important stuff, and deserves more discussion here than it has previously been given.)

To Al: I'm VERRRRY interested in your situation, and the way you've approached it. I'd love to go over this with you more in-depth, but for now... where are you getting your load data? Who's used one? Who's BUILT one? What barrel length(s) are you considering? What action? Yes, for "AT&T" shooting, I'd consider a faster twist than the usual 1:10", but first -- call Sierra, and talk to them. Get their input about bullet weight and twist rate, then get back to us (me).

Let me add insult to injury, Al. Why not a .340 Weatherby Magnum? It's not a wildcat, has great downrange ballistics, and plenty of energy to get the job done. As I discussed with Mr. Bain, there are very few reasons to go with wildcats anymore. I have my reasons for suggesting the .340 Weatherby Magnum. Again, I like your approach to this, but I'd like to hear more.

To Fred: I have my browser set up exactly that way. If everyone else did, they wouldn't have to reload. Thanks, Fred.

To Bernard: Marius is our resident Rostermeister and resident Perl honcho. I have to defer to him in such matters.
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Tuesday, September 08, 1998 at 08:17:18 (EDT) 

Russ, Thanks for you help, Posting for help in finding a pet load for the 300 Win. Mag. New custom built for 1000 yd. 2 weeks befor compition and work is keeping me from the bench. Any help out there would be great.. 28" #6 contour, Rem 700 action 10:1 twist Laupa brass, fed 215 m. primer. 210 gr. Berger moly VLD. Powder available RL-22, RL-19, IMR-7828, IMR-4831, IMR-4350, AA-3100. also have Berger 185 gr. and 168 gr. getting nervious. thanks...
Jeffery Harris <>
Stansbury Park, Utah USA - Tuesday, September 08, 1998 at 09:34:42 (EDT) 

I want to attend one of the sniper/long range shooting schools in the not too distant future to get more involved in this. Don't know the nearewt one to Ga. Storm Mtn. maybe?

What would I need to aquire in terms of the basic equipment to be properly prepared to do this. I have rifle, spotting scope, rollup type shooting mat so far. What else would be necessary? I'm thinking drag bag, binocs, ghillie suit(tell me how, and I'll have a go at constructing my own), however, I don't know so I need some guidance on this matter.

So, any suggestions as to what items are necessary to build the basic kit for doing this the right way? I won't presume to know,but I believe that you guys DO !!

So Russell, Sarge, Gramps, Bain, Scott, TorF, Hexa, Marius...someone,anyone??? I stand ready, an empty head, naked in my livingroom, slathered in camo paint wearing a pair of blue pumps, a fistful of pencils in one hand, a palm pilot in the other, with a bandolier of smoking VISA cards straped cross my chest (makes you wanna throw up, doesn't it?).. So, if you would, hold forth.. and I'll be takin' some serious notes...

Jeff A. <>
Wannabe wanting info., Ga USA - Tuesday, September 08, 1998 at 10:00:59 (EDT) 

Jeff A,
Thanks a bunch for the info on the 260!!! My gunsmith is trying to talk me into the new Pac Nor barrel with the 3 grove rifleing, he says there really accurate and have great barrel life but I've had such good luck with Hart its hard to switch. I Guess the only thing holding up my project now is deciding what barrel to use and how heavy to go. I'll E.mail you if you dont mind I do have a few more questions on dies and brass. Thanks again.

I'am certainly no expert on "Bug Juice" but I do hate things that bite and crawl on me when I'am hunting. So the other night when some TV channel I happened to "Surf" over had this story on "Bug Juice" I watched it. The bottom line is Skin So Soft makes you smell good but does not work well in a bug Hungry invironment.(Sorry Gooch) The only thing that works to repel the little varmints is something with DEET in it.They tested most every thing known to man and the bottom line was if it has Deet it works, the more the better, if it doesn't contain DEET it wont work well!!
Also for what its worth, when you get up into the "BIG MAG" calibers for "Sniper rifles" you have a hard time getting factory ammo that is accurate enough to shoot the long range that you have the gun for, plus the barrel life is extremely short and the recoil will make most shooters shy away from practice and if your shooting at those extreme ranges you really need to practice a lot!! My suggestion would be to make one of Goochs Ghillie Suits with the optional robin egg blue pumps and sneak up closer and then use a "REMINGTION 308"(Not a Savage, sorry Russ I couldn'help myself)
Pat <>
USA - Tuesday, September 08, 1998 at 10:09:20 (EDT) 

Torsten: Das Boot.

Otto Kretschmer starb 8.aug. 98.
Oslo, Norwegen - Tuesday, September 08, 1998 at 10:17:06 (EDT) 

TorF: Thank you I will try to find the reference. The spelling of the Kahn's name may vary I am sure.

Rich & Marius: Brass Annealing, Rich is correct if you dump in water the metal becomes harder and brittle. Watch an old western. The old blacksmith when he is done, dips the shoe in water. This quickly shrinks the steel. Kinda like giving an extra hard pinch. The metal quickly collapses on itself and this forms bonds that won't break easily without cracking surrounding bonds.

Gooch: Does this Gooch spray work on Gnats. Mosquitoes just bite. Gnats enter all exposed orifices including your eyes. I'ld maim for a good Gnat repellant. Bugjuice Hmmm.

Russ and Scott: Past post questions. Bugjuice is very important if you can't see you can't hit what you need to. That and determining what is adequate loading equipment (especially throwing charges) decreases my time and increases my fun. So hopefully my ?'s won't be considered double posts when I ask them until I get an answer. I prefer to keep my lower extremities portable and that doesn't mean an oak chair with rollers.

So what powder measures do you people find adequate and exceptional?

tom <>
Front the Royal Oaks, VA USA - Tuesday, September 08, 1998 at 10:32:02 (EDT) 

Bug juice? Next thing you know Russ will want us to talk about our shotguns and Glocks. I think he's burst a brain vessel from all those double posts.

Here's what I know. DEET is considered the best thing to keep the bugs away. There are modern GI and commercial versions that work well, I use the GI version in the green tube. It is strong but not 100% effective as I can attest from a night shoot at Whittington last summer. There may be long-term health issues with DEET, so I wouldn't use it regularly on a long term basis. Make sure to test it first, to see if your skin reacts and see what it does to your gear, I've seen it melt some plastic and nylon materials and stain fabrics.

Bear in mind that smell is a valid target indicator and many forms of bug juice will make you reek of the stuff. They also may interfere with your own sense of smell. I think that covering up (long sleeves, etc.) is often a more prudent and effective option

Lastly, I saw a post (I forget from who, maybe Herr Gooch) that mentioned using a mix with 50% rubbing alcohol. If this is going directly on your skin, I'd be very careful about it so as to avoid alcohol poisoning.

Jeff A.: Well *that* is a pretty picture you painted. Do you have any idea how hard it is to shoot a tight group while having dry heaves?
Dave <>
San Jose, CA USA - Tuesday, September 08, 1998 at 12:41:42 (EDT) 

Jeff A,

go back in last month's archives, I think those for 15 - 19 August or the one before, Scott Powers gave some pointers to LeMay, or something like that, if I remember correctly, but it might have been somebody else. He mentioned what to take, and maybe not to take, keeping in mind that what you want along you have to carry.

I wish that I could make one of these courses as well - not the sort of thing one gets in South Africa unfortunately.

Marius <>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Tuesday, September 08, 1998 at 15:45:58 (EDT) 

Jeff A,
Damn...Thats some picture to conjure up in ones mind!!
On building a ghillie suit check out the Review section of Sniper Country. There's a pretty good article on how to build your own ghillie suit, of course the pumps are optional. You will also need a good camel back for water and ifyou need a pack I think Eagle makes one thats called a 3 day patrol pack and it has a built in place for a camel back with a waist belt, nice pack, there were several in use in Wyoming and they work great. Both Brigade Quatermaster or Ranger Joes has them in the catalog for around $99 to $119
Pat <>
USA - Tuesday, September 08, 1998 at 16:05:37 (EDT) 
From his hide Sarge, looking t his German/English dictionary says:

OK Torsten lets see:
Flood - from the front under 7 behind above 5.
500 liter of coffee in front (?? got me on this line)
Periscope up Tube 1 through 5 flood
Fan shoot
Bearing 0 0 7
Tube 1 through 5 FIRE

Torpedo running

Not to bad??? What do I win??? A FREE trip to Germany to play with all the toys!! A set of the new German BDU'S, a Leuopld mildot scope??? Tell me, Tell me -

I all the excitment Sarge uncovers his hide and begins taking serious incoming!

Entfernsich (??)

Sarge <>
Area 51, NM USA - Tuesday, September 08, 1998 at 17:39:30 (EDT) 

Thanks for info on 308 win with 175 Sierra's. I'll try the powders mentioned. You are right twist on my M24 is 1x11.5, Rem standar. Anyone have a load for it with Varget including OAL. I can help on 155 Palma's i won a Gold medal in Calif. Police Olympics in M14 with that bullet. Federal case, 46.0 grains IMR4064, Rem Primer, Same oal AS 308 Federal 168 round. Dont crimp or expand the mouth just Resize full length even if new, Chamfer the mouth inside and seat the bullet. Works in M14 great and shoots 1/2 minute out two 600 yards. Velocity is 2900-295fps. Flys well even in moderate wind. If you shoot in 26"bbl plus bolt gun you might consider going hotter for 1000yards.
Mike Miller <DMMDNLN>
USA - Tuesday, September 08, 1998 at 19:15:42 (EDT) 

Just thought I'd let you and all the other Savage owners out there that a competition trigger designed with an adjustment range from 2 lbs. to 12 oz. is available directly from Sharp Shooters Supply. Phone # 1-419-695-3179.I heard the price is $89.95 post paid.Apparently the trigger is a drop in unit.(I'm "ass"uming that you folks haven't already heard of this new product.)


I'd just read that HK has been doing some eperiments with the .300 Whisper reportedly in the new G36.have you heard of this new development ?I can potentially see supressed sub-gun or short range sniper rifle versions (if possible) coming out of this.


I heard a rumor that certain elements of the Canadian Armed Forces are or have been experimenting with .338 Lapua Magnum as a long range sniping cartridge.

I think the only way this cartridge will get the coomercial respect it deserves is if one of the American ammunition/firearms companies chambers this round in one of their offerings.Until then I'm afraid this cartridge will only be available in European weapons such as the Sakos.

Hey !! Remington & Savage,are you listening ?

Jeff B. <>
Truro, N.S. Canada - Tuesday, September 08, 1998 at 20:00:29 (EDT) 


How does one (student) drop their weapon in an airborne op?
Sounds fishy to me...I mean what was [he/she/it] doing that [he/she/it]-politicaly correct- should not have been...
Ferguson <>
WF, TX USA - Tuesday, September 08, 1998 at 20:34:27 (EDT) 

Gooch, we finally figured it out why all Marine's love to drink, it was do to all the alchol we used in are bug juice. As for the SSS and Alchol, it works great for sand fleas, gnats, and skeeters. To a degree. Yes you do smell pretty and you are greasy as hell. That GI green tube shit, it bad for you, 1 it closes up your poors and it will stop you from venting heat, which could lead to problems. Yes it can stain clothing, and eat through plastic, so that tells me what in the hell is it doing to my skin. Bug juice is a tough choice, do i wear it and risk compromise, or do i suck it up? One thing i do before i go to the field is i try to eat alot of garlic, it tends to help out.

Sgt. G.

Sgt. Gimmellie <USMC__SNIPER@MSN.COM>
USA - Tuesday, September 08, 1998 at 21:22:38 (EDT) 

Russ: How come you're calling me Paul all of a sudden? :-) Congratulate me on my newest aquisition: a Browning Buckmark Unlimited Match pistol (14" bbl.). I figure it's good for head shots at 4000 meters if the mirage isn't bad.

Pat: I guess Remingtons are OK if you don't mind the floppy bolt.

Gooch: When I lead patrols, I prefer a little bug juice odor over guys randomly slapping themselves and saying F*** every 10 seconds because of the mosquitoes. It's the lesser of two evils. Skin So Soft doesn't work for me but the regular issue stuff does well enough. Must be body chemistry... Maybe Marines are more disciplined on patrols than we are, but then, I've got a story about that, too.

Paul J. Headlee <>
Ogden, KS USA - Tuesday, September 08, 1998 at 22:42:50 (EDT) 

Has anyone else not been able to download The "Sniper Gripe" letter? I have tried several times and just gotten a big black spot with colored lines running through it.

On the issue of camouflage, I have two questions. Are Active duty miltary snipers allowed to wear glasses if their vison is correctable to 20/20? If so how do they keep the shine off the lens and camouflage them?

And what do you gentlemen (and Gooch) Think of using the night desert parka coat (whatever it's called) as a base for a gillie. I have one in the garage gatering dust and thought that may be a use for it.

And at last my Air Force experience is finally of some use on SC. Don't need bug juice just get a C-130 to blow JP4 exaust across your hide every hour or so and no self-respecting bug will be within a half mile. Just ensure everthing is tied down:)
Stagger 10-42
Stagger <LMcpher104@aol.Com>
Terre Haute, IN USA - Tuesday, September 08, 1998 at 22:50:12 (EDT) 

Mr. Taylor
The long action short action Savage question is purely a personal thing because of the scope I use. ART scopes have thier own base with a fixed distance between the cross bolts. When I use it on the long action the rear base must hang over the reciever opening. I have not found a rear mount that extends out to the cross bolt. As for faster or stronger? Never crossed my mind but the freebee here is the rear pillar on the newer gun and like Noah I have two of every thing else why not two FP's?
Monterey Jack <>
Prundale, Calif. USA - Tuesday, September 08, 1998 at 23:02:59 (EDT) 
Russ: Do you have a number for Model One Imports? The 700 went to the repair rep today to be sent to Remington. Is it just me, or are gunstore employees generally rude or ignorant everywhere? Will be contacting Remington directly to attempt to gain some measure of satisfaction.

Al: Would also suggest looking at the Dakota cartridges or the Lazzeronis if velocity is a factor. No belts and a reasonably short powder coluever How long is long range? What use does a police department have for a long range rig? "Ass"uming they did, wouldn't they be limited to factory fodder due to liability concerns?

There is an American .338 Lapua. The Dakota Longbow. VERY expensive, but impressive ballistics.

Andrew <>
surrounded by socialists, Tx USA - Wednesday, September 09, 1998 at 00:11:48 (EDT) 

Anyone- Does the .300win mag. tend to leave more copper fouling than a .308win? Mine seems to foul up much faster than my .308 and I was wondering if that is normal. The weapons are Savage 110FP's and they shoot great, it's just i have to spend a week getting the 300 cleaned after a range session. Also I have never used "Sweets" copper solvent would that solve my promblems? Thanks
Stagger 10-42
Stagger <>
State of, wondering USA - Wednesday, September 09, 1998 at 00:20:50 (EDT) 
To Pat: A Remington, eh? I'm not even going to address that.

Well, okay... I'll address that. I issued a challenge a month or so back to Mr. Bain (check the archives). He didn't take me up on it, nor did anyone else. As YOU should know, Pat... MONEY does not a SHOOTER make! Case in point, the #3 winner at the Wyoming Hathcock shoot. Remember? He was using (* gulp *) a Ruger No. 1 in .270 Winchester. Against all those other guys with "money guns." You keep going broke, Pat, I'll keep to my Savages.

I'd also heard the same thing about the Avon product, that it wasn't any good when it really mattered. I agree, DEET is the way to go.

To TorF: "Das Boot" is one of my favorite movies. I prefer the German version with the English subtitles. I actually read the book, too, before I saw the movie. Both are good. Now, what do U-Boats have to do with snipers and sniping? :-)

To Tom "Let Me Get This Straight" Scott: On powder measures, I use a Lee. It's pretty consistent. I'd sure like to hear what you guys with money (Pat?) are using, though.

To Deputy Dave: No, I'm quite serious. Any of you guys who have operated in tropical, deep-jungle environments (Rick), probably know the value of a good repellant. Sure, DEET is the key, but I'd like to hear what has worked for some of you (low scent, application retention, and so on). In a tactical field environment, this is something that is too often overlooked until it's needed.

To Jeff B.: I know about the new trigger, but others may not have. Thanks for the post. Oh, I tested my 110FP's trigger the other night on a scale -- 3.2 pounds, everytime. Not bad for a guy who doesn't know what he's doing, eh? I'll just keep adjusting mine, I can't afford to buy others. Still, from what I hear, they're worth the price. If you get one, let us know. Write a review, include a few pictures, and I'll post it in our "How to..." section.

To SGT Gimmellie: I did the garlic thing (tablets) before I went bear hunting in Canada, starting more than a month prior to leaving on the trip. And yeast. And B-1. I spoke to my pharmacist, and he said I was already doing everything that I could do (those three things). Drink lots of water, too, so your kidneys don't shut down from taking all that stuff (I'm serious).

To Paul: I don't know... what did I use to call you? Congratulations on the Buckmark. I thoroughly enjoyed your "slapping" comment. Not very tactical, I agree. Reminds me of PVT Owens and his sand flea in Jack Webb's The D.I. -- a good lesson for us all.

To Stagger: As I said when I posted it, the "Sniper Gripe" letter is large, and it is that way because I used high resolution when I scanned it, so it would be easier to read. Keep trying.

To Andrew: No, I don't have a number handy, but look in any issue of Shotgun News and you should find an advertisement with the information.

On ignorant gunstore employees: Well, everywhere? I don't know. MANY PLACES? Yes. Maybe it's the same with most of us here (I think many of us on this page have an above-average level of firearms expertise), but I know that, honestly, about 85% of the time, I know a LOT more than the guy behind the counter. It's pretty bad when he doesn't know what product I'm talking about (and it's sitting on the shelf behind him -- seriously), or he doesn't know about the new "such and such" that "so and so" has just come out with, or he doesn't know the difference between spitzers and boattails bullets. It's also lousy when he doesn't know how to release the slide on the pistols in his inventory. I could go on, but you get the idea. Yes, often, the hired help is pretty sad. Not "always," but often. To many of them, "it's just a job."

For Dakota products, we have a link on our links page, if you'd like to visit their website.
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, September 09, 1998 at 04:17:45 (EDT) 

To Stagger: Of course, some will just chalk your problem up to the fact that you're shooting Savages. "Ahem." Now then, you might want to consider lapping the bores. For a copper solvent I like Barnes CR-10. Clean normally, dry patch the bore, then apply the copper solvent. If you're using a brass jag, or a copper brush, you'll always get "blue" on your patches... but use the copper remover until you don't see anymore copper, unless you're from the school which says to leave some copper in the bore to reduce or eliminate the need for fouling shots. Note, you run the risk of copper fouling with faster velocities (as was pointed out recently).
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, September 09, 1998 at 04:27:51 (EDT)


I don't understand your refrence, but, I use Ben's DEET. I got it in origionelly for the black flies in Maine but I have used it effectivelly in Central Americia (Belise, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, El Salvador, Mexico) and in South America (Columbia, Peru). I have tried a lot of others but this seems to work best.

The most tinatious insect I have ever incountered is the black fly, it will get (in swarms) within one iunch of the DEET but will not land.
Depity Dave <>
Up early for a transport through Beautiful, West Virginia USA - Wednesday, September 09, 1998 at 05:12:17 (EDT) 

I figured you would know,I´m very impressed. Didn´t know about Kretschmers death, but I visit the 7C Memorial in Laboe every time I´m in Kiel.
Very good work child, no homework for you today son!
The 500 Liters of Coffee to the front is U-Boot slang for the trim tanks making the boat submerge faster.They also send the crew forward to aid this.
Mail me a DZ and prepare for incoming.
xring asked for a translation of the "Panzerlied" and I figured I let him do a little homework beforehand.
U-Boot´s on a Sniper page, well have you never trained leaving a sub through the Tube ???? and is it not a one shot one kill deal involving stealth ?? Heh ?? If we ever get to visit SIG Sauer I´ll squeeze you through the 7C boat in Laboe. Had a drafting teacher in High school that flew props of a carrier, they used to drink the torpedo fuel mixed with OJ.
I dont know, but I´ll send out a Spähtrupp!
I wear them as backup when my contacts fail, I have a pair of Wayfarers that now have clear plastic leanses with the heaviest anti glare tint my optician could find. Looks like Buddy Holly in VN, but works. Also wearing the good old Skeeter net helps a lot. Biggest problem is rain droplets, but there is a fluid that is used on motorcycle helmet visors that lets them run of and helps keep the vision clear.
Bug Juice:
I always use rose oil to "fill" the pores with something natural before applying the bug juice. Also putting it on a neckerchief and the boonie works well.


Torsten <>
7C Wolfpack, Germany - Wednesday, September 09, 1998 at 05:35:38 (EDT) 

To Torsten: Rose oil first, eh? Hmmm. Good idea, thanks. Now... who sells that stuff???

To Deputy Dave: Thanks for the tip on Ben's DEET. And good luck on the transport.
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, September 09, 1998 at 06:13:21 (EDT) 

To Russell and Torsten, re. U-boats.

"Silent-Otto" Kretschmer was an exellent "sniper".

The Laboe 7C boat, U995, has a history in Norway during WW2 under german command. After the war the boat was used by the Norwegian Navy until 1965. The boat was offered to the german goverment for 1DM. The offer was turned down... Then german veterans intervened and bought it. Lots of pictures at, one of the best sites on the internet.
Oslo, Norway - Wednesday, September 09, 1998 at 10:00:32 (EDT) 

Jeff A,
Would you e.mail me what your using for dies and brass on your 260 Rem. I tried to e.mail you but they keep kicking it back. I must not have your address right so if you e.mail me I will just log it in my file. Thanks
Pat <>
USA - Wednesday, September 09, 1998 at 10:02:03 (EDT) 
Pat: Thanks for the info re: the ghillie suit, camel back, and patrol pak. I will check them all out. Brigade Quartermaster's retail outlet/warehouse is about 10-15 miles from me.

Marius: Thank you. I will check the archives you referred to.


On a less phonetic note, yesterday I received the Mildot Master w/ manual, read the manual front to back, did the examples, and am mightily impressed. The manual was easy to read and understand. The device is simplicity to work. The whole initial run-through took 45 min at most. It was clear to me( and bear in mind, I'm one who requires, large arrows on the hallway wall, coupled with crayola stick figure diagrams, to remind me in which room and by which procedure I must "make water" in the middle of the night) what the device can and cannot do and what the shooter must do to benefit from the Mildot Master.

I'm certainly going to work with it a lot more and will find time ( and the ranges ) to do the shooter's part to make work for me..

Anyway, Bruce, at Mildot Enterprises, thank you for your skill, enery and effort in developing this device. I, for one, hope others will check it out. I think it's nothing short of brilliant.

Jeff A.
Jeff A. <>
Smyrna, Ga USA - Wednesday, September 09, 1998 at 10:30:15 (EDT) 

Hey guts thanks for heads up about MilDot Master. When I get mine,I won't have to hurt my brain anymore. About the question about 300Win Fouling versus 308Win, no question my 300 Win PSS is a fouling machine, but I think it's because Remington did such a wonderful goob at leaving all the rough spots inside. I would take the BBL off and throw it away but it shoots under a minute with the right hand loads. No factory ammo will shoot under a minute and a half though. I have to load the bullets so long it looks like a necked down 416Rigby. Anyone else have the same problem. As to Gunstore employees, I have found the bigger the store hte less people in it that know squat. Usually one will know something and the rest will just BS you. I have had good results with Remington directly, but dont call right a letter. I did so when I got a parkerized inside BBL last year. I asked for reimbursment for ammo, my time, and the cost of bedding the rifle again. I got a free 40X BBL for my troubles. They were slow but did great work. Good luck if you call there goob is to make you go away in customer service.
Calif USA - Wednesday, September 09, 1998 at 10:59:50 (EDT) 
On your 300 fouling, thats the nature of the beast esp. when it gets hot and that doesn't take to many rounds. You didn't say if or how you broke it in, if you did you can disregard but if you didn't try cleaning you barrel with Hoppes and then use Sweets until "all" the copper is gone then start in with JBS and run about 5 to 10 patchs through it useing each patch back an forth about 5 to 8 times then push it out the end of the barrel. Be careful not to bring it back into the chamber or you could start to get early throat errosion. Now start the break in process of shooting a round then cleaning it for the first 10 then every 2 for the next 20 then every 5 for the next 20. There are different break in methods but this works well for me.Every gun I've done this with has fouled less and shot better. Hope this will help, but like I said if you broke it in right disregard.

Jeff A,
Got your e.mail thanks! I put your address in my file so I'll drop you a line.
Pat <>
USA - Wednesday, September 09, 1998 at 12:30:30 (EDT) 

This is an outstanding site. I visit here everyday. I own a Chandler Sniper and usually shoot on my own. Just got out of the Marine Corps 15, Aug. Are any of the folks from Sniper Country from or in the NC area?
Jeff Shelton <>
Monroe, NC USA - Wednesday, September 09, 1998 at 14:00:50 (EDT) 
Has anyone out there just seen the new Sportsmans Guide catalog ? On page 8 they offer the Simmons LaserMag 600 rangefinder for $149.97. If anybody knows if this thing is any good please let me know, maybe I'll get one to keep in my war bag. Thanks !

USA - Wednesday, September 09, 1998 at 15:59:10 (EDT) 

In reference to Greg's group problem.....I recently built a rem700 .308 with a Shilen ss match #11 taper 23" long 8 lugs in an HS Precision Stock and did not bed the barrel. After appr 1000 rounds I am still grouping within 10 to 12 seconds
out to 100 yds. At further ydg, of course because of windage and gremlins, the group does open slightly. Call Shilen and talk to Gary Huntsman, he should be able to evaluate your problem. I suspect your ammo is the culprit. If you are hand-loading try seating the bullet further toward the throat, but in doing so, be aware you will have to reduce your powder to prevent high pressure. If the barrel was broken in correctly, the throat is not eroded, and the head space is OK, suspect the AMMO. Also, not to mention any names or Police Depts, I recently found a similar problem from a new 40X to only be a loose scope mount. Good Luck!

Robert Spencer <>
Davie, Fl. USA - Wednesday, September 09, 1998 at 17:01:41 (EDT) 

To Tom: powder measures
I have several, dont ask me why. I like the RCBS version with the optional micrometer adjustment the best. No allen wrenches to mess with. I started out with the large micrometer version and I liked it so well that I went out and bought a smaller one just for pistol powders. These measures are by no means the best that money can buy, just good enough. If you want to spend some serious dough, go to a registered bench rest match and ask some of the cometitors what they use and how much they spent on theirs.
Steve <>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Wednesday, September 09, 1998 at 18:34:04 (EDT) 
Thanks for info on 300 win mag Breakin, but alas I did it the hard way to start. Cleaned to bare metal every round for ten total every third for next twenty one. I am going to fire lap and see if the bore will smouth out. Like I said it shoots well but fouls bad quickly, with every round I shoot, 190's - 220's. I am also interested if the Simmons Laseis any good. I have a Bushnell but it is onlt good to about 300 yards
USA - Wednesday, September 09, 1998 at 19:23:54 (EDT) 
Sarge - peering through his bi-focals (ahum) tries to get things in focus to fire:

Yep, I KNOW what a pain glasses can be!! I've only worn them since I was 6! Tried contacts but my eyes are now so bad I can't really use them anymore! Had my opthomologist set me bifocals so that when I'm looking through the lower half (NO-LINE ONLY way to go!!) the reticles are in sharp focus!
Good luck gents this is in ALL your futures!! My eyes are sooooooooo bad - How bad are they? - I could have gotten a permanent medical deferment in 1969 when I got drafted!! But doing a Canada just wasn't my style!! And while we are on the subject - eye protection! What do you wear in the field? What color lens? "Sunglasses" or "shooting" glasses? Low light situations? This should make for good discussion!
Question - and I think its one we've kicked around before - just can't remember when - Log Books! I've looked at the one we have reviewed here at SC and it looks like a nice log at a NICE price!! Who makes a GOOD log book at a REASONALBE price?? Later all!

Using his white cane Sarge feels his way back to his hide!

Sarge <>
Area 51, NM USA - Wednesday, September 09, 1998 at 20:46:37 (EDT) 

Kodiak: That's a good price on the Simmons, but....and it's a big but. You can only count on it ranging out to 200-300 yards in a hunting or tactical situation. I have a Bushnell 800. Occasionally, I can range out to 600 or so yards in the field, but most of the time it's only 400 yards. While these things may not range as far as advertised under field conditions, they are accurate and can be both frustrating and surprising. My advice is to buy the longest range rangefinder you can afford and only count on it ranging to half it's advertised range.

Mike O'Brien < or>
Evansville, WY USA - Wednesday, September 09, 1998 at 20:48:41 (EDT) 

Ferguson - I wish it was only ONE student. Unfortunately more than one student has "accomplished" that feat. What happens is the student doesn't properly hook the 1950 weapons Container to the lrucksack owering line and to the reserve D ring. The rucksack is lowered, then the weapon's container is lowered. The lowering of the weapons container trips the lowering line on the rucksack and both go to the ground. YES, I know the jumpmaster should have caught the error before the jump, but the error is very difficult to spot and is easy to overlook. Also the error does not result in a dropped rucksack everytime. We have since modified the hookup to prevent the problem.

Stagger - Yes Army snipers can wear glasses if their eyes are correctable to 20/20. They usually wear a sniper veil to cover the shine of the glasses. Or they get caught. On the desert parka, I wouldn't use it unless you are in an area of unusally dark terrain, and it is cold out. The parka does not ventilate very well and you could overheat. The base uniform being that dark will cast a dark appearence to your suit. Start light then darken, it's easier than going the other way.

On repellants, what we used is now illegal and banned by every "right thinking" environmentalist. But man is sure worked, and had zero odor to humans. The other trick was both garlic and sulfur. That Will keep you sniper buddy from being too buddy buddy.

On contacts for shooting, be very careful. You will find that sometimes you are looking through one part of the lens and another part the next time. This can create problems for accuracy. As far as glasses, I know the problem, in one year I went from 20/10 to 20/40 and each year it is worse. Can't wait to get "really old", like Sarge, and bi-focales do stink for shooting and spotting.

Can't find it now, but someone asked about miling a man sized target at ranges beyond 1000. Man sized targets past 1200 is not realistic, The probability of error and trajectory will cause a miss more often than a hit. Man sized targets past 1200 would be a harrassing shot and not an intended kill shot. Past 1200 is what we talk about in the "Hard Target" arena of equipment for large bore weapons. At ranges of 1200 and beyond just a 1 mph wind shift can effect the round by 10 - 12 inches. Just as the mythical 1000 meter head shot, human sized targets at the longer ranges are as much a matter of luck as anything else. If not than the 1000 yard competition would have no sighters and the scores would all be 200 with 20 Xs.

Well guys, guess I've jumped in with both feet so I'll sneek out of here while I still have all my body parts.

Rick <>
Fayetteveille, NC USA - Wednesday, September 09, 1998 at 22:31:38 (EDT) 

Here's the latest on the saga of the Wyoming-bound 300 WinMag (yes Russ, PRONGHORN & MULIES):

Epoxy-bedded the first 2" of the barrel in front of the receiver. After doing this, the first five shots (180gr Sierra SPBTs) through a clean, cold barrel went into 2". Now, with a warm, dirty barrel, I put five 150gr Ballistic Tips into about 7/8". This was a load I had used when I had the old barrel on the rifle and decided to try them for the hell of it. The next five (back to the 180s again, but this time seated into the lands), went into 1.125". Lastly, back to the 180s seated at "magazine" depth, and with a cold, dirty barrel, I put four into .75" with a called flyer that opened the five shots to 1.25".

The big disappointment came when I tried some Federal Premium with 180gr Nosler Partitions: a whopping 3.375" vertical dispersion! I think I'll stick to my handloads.

I also chronographed three of the last five handloads and the five Federals. The three handloads averaged 3278 fps with a spread of 9 fps. The five Federals averaged 2990 fps with a spread of 34 fps! So much for quality control on that particular lot! Not only that, but the primers were flattened more on the factory stuff than my "hot" handloads.

The one major problem I'm still having is figuring out how to eliminate the "jump" caused by the firing pin inertia. I can see this quite plainly when "firing" a snap cap; the crosshairs jump up and to the right, sometimes as much as an inch. If I could eliminate this movement, my groups would shrink considerably. This problem is not unique to this rifle; I encounter the same thing with my Mauser-based, Unertl-scoped varmint rigs. Are long actions prone to this type of problem? Can anything be done to alleviate it, besides the heavy spring/titanium firing pin remedy?

Sorry for the long post, but I don't like to leave out details that may lead to solving a problem.
Greg <>
Palmyra, PA USA - Wednesday, September 09, 1998 at 23:03:35 (EDT) 

Russ: What challenge? 5 Remingtons and 5 Savages? You buying? Oh, and I have my own requirement: The rifles all get thrown down a hill first, then we shoot.

Jeff A.: Training? See my e-mail to you through Ryan's e-mail address. There is only one school on the East Coast: Storm Mountain Training Center.


Mr. Bain <>
West, by God, Virginia USA - Wednesday, September 09, 1998 at 23:23:23 (EDT) 

Bug Juice:

My current bug juice is "Deep Woods" 95% DEET, eh. Never mind the lesser grades, full strength will last longer, thus less movement. Some hunting stores sell woodsy scented repellant, but I don't hunt until after first frost, eh.

One summer at St Charles Range near Winnipeg I observed several people is t-shirts off the side of the line of fire. A local shooter explained they were military personnel testing various bug juices in the swamp! "Volunteers? Right! You four over there, strip down to t-shirts and stop swatting."

A precaution, good bug juice is also an excellant solvent. Therefore, watch crystals and bands, eyeglass temples, nose pads and frames are vulnerable. (I outgrew my one-time issue 'birth control' frames, and now wear metal frames). Painted surfaces and parts on rifles, scopes, binos and other gear may craze or soften.

I have tried a head net, but it blocks out a lot of information, and is hard to see out of.

Ref 30/338 in Canada question: The JTF2 (Canadian Forces' counter terror team) has tested/is testing a bolt action .50 made by Prairie Gun Works in Winnipeg. The company's shooting partner showed a 338 Norma Magnum (?) case this summer. I don't know the guy, so he may not have told about all their customers. If the JTF is anything like the RCMP ERTs, they are better specifiers than shooters and like children and new toys. But they don't have the doctrine to employ such precision shooting tools, they just want to have it.
Terry Warner <>
Canada - Wednesday, September 09, 1998 at 23:36:22 (EDT) 

To Al and Pat: Recently, you mentioned the .30-338 and the .308 Norma Magnum. I just got my October-November issue of Handloader, #195, and there's an article on page 38 called "Useful 30s" that compares the .300 Winchester Magnum alongside of the other two. Load data is included for the former two. "Most of those [loads] for the .30-338 approach maximum pressures. The .308 Norma loads are a tad more conservative." If you want me to scan the DATA PAGE into a JPG file and send it, let me know. I haven't read the article yet, but the Norma round looks to have more capacity from the author's (Wayne van Zwoll's) comments. I'm looking forward to reading this article as soon as possible. Just from a light glance at the piece, though, I'd be inclined to follow your advice, Pat, and go with the Norma offering (given the choice between the two, that is, with nothing else considered).

Someone else asked about case neck crimping. On page 44, there's an article called... "duh"... "Case Neck Crimping." If you guys are serious about handloading, but don't subscribe to Handloader, you're not that serious.

There's also a nice piece on the .35 Whelen, with load data -- which will be useful in developing my .35 Bear Buster loads.

Oh... and the rest of the magazine isn't too bad, either.

To Mr. Bain: Buying? I'm still recovering from the extra $115 dollars from my trip west. Last month's house payment hasn't been made and this month's is coming up. So, HELL NO, I'm not buying. Throw them down a hill? :-) Fine with me, buckwheat, as soon as you tell me how we can ensure that each rifle receives the same number of impacts, at the same points, from the same angles. Of course, the same scopes and mounts would be used. Someone call Remington and Savage and set this up.

To Rick: Sulfur too? Hmmm. Boy, you're handy to have around and I sure learn a LOT from you. Thanks for the tip. (Offline, what was the other stuff?) Your comments on mil-ranging a man past 1,000 yards were what I expected. Thanks for the verification.

To Greg: Those kind of details, lengthy or not, are always welcome here. That's the only way anyone can help you.
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, September 10, 1998 at 01:13:50 (EDT) 

whats with all the aussies popping out of the woodwork?
anyway, i come here all the time and just listen to what people are saying, so i thought that i would finally speak..
new generation of snipers indeed..
im only 17 and i was wondering if any aussies out there know if the SSAA would let people under 18 fire a rifle, so if anyone knows, could you tell me. also any techniques that i could use to show Dad that im not going to be another martyn bryant. he grew up on a farm, he should know that gun training should be compulsory for everyone...

i was also looking at making a ghillie but year 12 sux so i think ill wait to the end, if there is anyone out there who has come up with a good method for beating the heat (besides a camel back coz im too poor) do you think that you could post that?

from the nation that produces the best combat soldiers in the world (please someone disagree so that we can have a decent discussion),
volopfski signing off from down under

volopfski <>
australia - Thursday, September 10, 1998 at 01:34:31 (EDT) 

to all you americans...something i bet you didnt know that skippy the bush kangaroo is so stupid that if you shoot him from 100m with a .22 rifle, the bullet bounces straight off. anyone with any armour piercing rounds spare??

roo shooter
USA - Thursday, September 10, 1998 at 02:02:01 (EDT) 

To Volopfski: By your own admission, you are underage in accordance with Sniper Country policy, as stated CLEARLY in the In-Country Briefing at Please refrain from visiting this website until you are 18 years old.
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, September 10, 1998 at 02:17:43 (EDT) 
Question ?

When shooting an RPG/LAW at a standing taget at say 300 Meters with a 10 MPH crosswind from 03:00.
How much, and in which direction will the shooter have to compensate ?

It´s one shot, one kill, and ballistics, so I figured it was close enough for the roster.

Thanks for the input on the contacts Rick, I´ll test it to see if it makes a diffrence in my shooting.
germany - Thursday, September 10, 1998 at 03:46:16 (EDT) 

Confederate123: regarding .303 loads- I use 45grs H414 under a 150gr Hornady Spire Point. Weapon is an Enfield #2 Mk3. Consistent to about 1 1/2 M.O.A. Velocity around 2500 fps pressures around 42000 CUP. Worth a shot in any functioning modern .303

This is my first visit to this page.... Absolutely impeccable!
Kevin Osborne <>
Ft.Valley, Ga USA - Thursday, September 10, 1998 at 05:04:15 (EDT) 

To Ed: Remember I quoted you about $525 from Jerry's for the 3-12x 50mm Burris Black Diamond mil-dot with matte finish? Well, I just got my Graf & Sons catalog -- and had a minor shock. They list the same scope for $502.33 (dealer cost). I've been on their mailing list since I blew several bucks with them, buying 16 pounds of Hodgdon H50BMG powder. Wow... that Burris scope is going to end up on my ArmaLite AR-15 yet.
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, September 10, 1998 at 05:59:10 (EDT) 


What do you want to do, vaporize the guy? Fragmentation not good enough for you? Geez! :o)
Matt <>
GA USA - Thursday, September 10, 1998 at 06:38:08 (EDT) 

Mr. Bain: Got your email, spun it right around, and wrote to Mr. Ryan.

Many thanks..

Jeff A.
Jeff A. <>
Smyrna, Ga USA - Thursday, September 10, 1998 at 12:16:18 (EDT) 


Yes, the NSW log book is expensive, I won't argue that point. LOD makes a spiral bound data book that runs $20 plus shipping, or $30 for the book with their data charts. It looks to be about the same size as the NSW unit so I suspect that the pages are larger. I couldn't tell you if it was any good or not though, I'm still broke from buying that NSW book. :)

The only other commercial book I know of is Gunsite's rifle data book, which is the cheapest at $12.95. Again, I couldn't tell you if it was any good.

You may be able to find a military one surplus or from some other source, maybe Gooch knows of a stack that DRMO is getting rid of or something but I wouldn't count on it. Maybe some anonymous GI can be bribed to send one your way in exchange for an appropriate contribution of beer to his unit. :)

The last option is to make your own data book, using either your own data pages or copies of existing ones. This is may be the only way to get a book perfectly suited to your needs. If you take this route try to make it as durable as you can.

Good luck. And you may want to camo that white cane of yours, it's compromising your hide. Maybe gramps will make you a ghillie cane.

Rick: when you say that the night desert parka doesn't vent very well, are you talking about it with or without the liner in it? Just curious, I've been meaning to pick one of these up...

Dave <>
San Jose, CA USA - Thursday, September 10, 1998 at 12:24:54 (EDT) 

To Mike O'Brien:
Mike, thanks for the info on the rangefinders. Maybe I'll try to borrow one and test it before I buy.
USA - Thursday, September 10, 1998 at 14:50:34 (EDT) 
New on this site, just looking for info...


Looking for McMillan stock, any suggestions?
IRWIN, PA USA - Thursday, September 10, 1998 at 15:56:40 (EDT) 

to all...

been envious of you precision shooters all of my short life...

finally got a little nest-egg and i want to get in on the action - where should i start?

i was thinking about getting a Remington 700 because it is in the price range that will allow me to also get the necessary accessories. first, what other rifles are comparable to the 700. second, what should i be looking for in terms of length, twist, stock, etc?


ryan... <>
IN USA - Thursday, September 10, 1998 at 17:31:20 (EDT) 

LAKE ARROWHEAD, CA USA - Thursday, September 10, 1998 at 17:42:10 (EDT) 
Hey 34 fps standard deviation in a hunting round is not bad and thats what Premium Federal is, a hunting round and not sniper quality. Your right to stick to hand loads. Cheaper and much better, especially in any belted magnum. Thanks for info on Simmons Range Finder I guess you really get what you pay for. Anyone know of a Laser Finder that will work at 600-800 yards that doesn't cost over a grand
Calif. USA - Thursday, September 10, 1998 at 18:42:48 (EDT) 
Laser Range Finders:

I have the Bushnell Yardage Pro 800 and I have used it out to 896 yards (found in my log book) and beyond. At the longer ranges it needs a good target and you will need some kind of a rest/support (I'm over 6 feeet tall and I used the head of someone who is somewhat shorter [Rod Ryan]). I have modified the battery cover to accept the 1/4 - 20 threads of a standard tripod and suggested this modification to Bushnell. If conditions are good and you have a good reflective target, 999 yards is not out of the question. I know that I have ranged targets in the 990 yard range. This unit can be adjusted to read in meters and has several modes to allow it's use even in the rain. Of course objects in the way (grass, leaves, etc) will effect it's accuracy, that's why I still have mil dots.

The main advantage of this unit, in my openion, is that it allows me to practice rang estimation and varifing my estimate. The more I practice the better I get.....I think I've heard that before.....somewhere.

Stay Safe!
Depity Dave <>
Waiting for the weekend in, Wonderful West Virginia USA - Thursday, September 10, 1998 at 19:49:27 (EDT) 

Oh well.... I guess that 303's are getting pretty obscure...
Andy <>
USA - Thursday, September 10, 1998 at 22:00:27 (EDT) 
Dave - The Night Desert has a problem venting with and without the liner. I recommend you spend less money and purchase an old used Field Jacket, cut out the lining, and cut out a vent area across the shoulders. In the cut out sew in netting with only 1/8 - 1/4 inch holes, (they sell it in many respectable cloth shops to include a camo version). You can do the same in the pit area. The field jacket is tough enough for crawling and you don't need to sew tons of canvas on the front. Add a pocket in the small of the back for your spotting scope by cutting a sleeve off an old fatigue shirt and use a pocket flap from the thigh pocket of an old jungle or BDU pants to close the pocket. Once you've done that you can attach your netting and garnish over the back. For pants, just use fatigue or BDU pants. If you feel you must garnish the pants, REMEMBER, the shirt comes down to the bottom of your butt and if you put netting and garnish there then; 1 no one will see it: 2 you'll just look like you have a really big butt that can be seen for miles! Only garnish the back of the legs, myself I don't bother because it catches on everything and I swear that vines leap 10 - 15 feet just for the pleasure of tripping and unsuspecting ghillie wearer.

On the log book - becareful coping pages from books that are copyrighted. Some authors are very touchy about that!!! Just write down what you think you need in data pages and stop worring about all that data that even long range comp shooters don't write down. Most of those log books contain much to much crap to be useful. Each person has his needs for data. Those books attempt to please everyone. LEA TYPES, WRITE IT ALL DOWN!!!

Torsten - You're getting as evil as Gooch!! You have to aim down wind(9:00) because the wind pushes the tail more than the war head causeing the rocket to move up wind! By the way, your countryman in the class is doing pretty good. He is having some trouble with his English. Unfortunately, this class we don't have any German speakers to match him up with as we did Frank. We're triing to get him some more manuals and books to take back with him at the end of the month. I'll keep you up on what's happening.

Have fun guys and gals!! Alex, you've been quite here lately! Nothing to add?

Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Thursday, September 10, 1998 at 22:02:29 (EDT) 

Hey Guys,
My friend and I are looking at purchasing a Dillon 550/650. The question of accuracy came up, of course. Specifically, how accurate is the powder measure? Are any of you using one of these units? What sort of results are you getting? Is the 650 worth the extra bucks? All input appreciated. Thanks for the info Russ.
Andrew <>
Austin, TX USA - Thursday, September 10, 1998 at 22:11:34 (EDT) 
Ryan: Start with the blue pumps. You know, the softer side of Sears?

SGT Petite: My cheesy little Pact Professional tells me that at 700 yards a Hornady 110 grain RN would have about 828 fps remaining, drop 239.6 inches and deflect 78.3 inches in a 5 mph cross wind. Switching to the Hornady 110 grain spitzer gives a remaining velocity of 1238 fps; 127.6 inches of drop and 37.6 inches of deflection in the 5 mph cross wind. Even with this improvement, you must be a hell of a shot to get 2 rounds even close to each other at 700 yards. A minor error in range estimation or wind effect would make a severe change in point of impact. Using a 168 grain Sierra HPBT at about 2550 fps gives you around 1450 fps remaining at 700 yards and it only deflects 24.4 inches in that 5 mph wind for an improvement of about 35%. In your .30-06 you should be able to easily achieve 2800 fps. This would provide better than a 43% improvement in resistance to deflection over the 110 grain RN. That's OK, we all knew you were joking. :>]

Your shootin' buddy,
Paul J. Headlee <>
Ogden, KS USA - Thursday, September 10, 1998 at 22:49:28 (EDT) 

Andrew: As far as progressive reloaders go, the Dillon is top notch. You may know that already, but I learned it the hard way. I own an XL 650 now and won't even consider another machine as far as progressives go. I have no 1st hand experience w/ the 550 model. The 650 does auto-index. I beleive the 550 is manual index. The 650 is a smooth powerful machine and can probably progressively load rifle ammo as well (probably better) than most any other prog. machine.

I experimented trying to use it to "semi" progressivly reload .308 ammo for my rifle and it did okay. The powder, when properly set w/ charging bar, drop tube device etc. would accurately throw charges of ball powders beautifully. However, my best accuray loading has always been with extruded or "stick" powder. The larger or coarser the powder, the less likelihood of throwing same chg. ea. time.

I tried several powders and noticed that it became somewhat erratic w/ VV n150. By that, I mean that there would be +/- 0.2 gr difference in chg. wt with random sampling of chg. weights. With VV N 135, I got 0.1gr or so variation w/ sample chg. wts. This ain't bad for a prog. reloader, but, still, it bugged me. I want to KNOW that ea. round has

So now, I weigh ea. charged
Jeff A. <>
Smyrna, Ga. USA - Thursday, September 10, 1998 at 23:10:59 (EDT) 


Anyway, Andrew, I now weigh ea charge because I want to know exactly. And I load my rifle ammo on a Forester Co Ax single stage press. It's much slower, of course, but no wondering about error. I get a satisfaction knowing that the rifle handloads are as exact as my means will allow.

Didn't really ask for all that crap, did ya? Anyway, get the XL 650 if you want to progressive reload. That's my humble opinion. The powder measure is accurate up to a point depending on powder coarseness, or is it coarsity, coarsariety,...

Jeff A.
Jeff A. <>
Mashing computer buttons that I shouldn't in Smyrna, Ga USA - Thursday, September 10, 1998 at 23:26:27 (EDT) 

Ryan Page: Remington has a dandy web page with pictures and some specifications. The closest Model 700 to the unachievable ideal sniper rifle is their Model PSS. Short barrel, dull finish, synthetic stock and aluminum bedding block. It is also their off-the-shelf offering to police departments. The .308 is probably good to 900 yds with 168s, but the other chambers should not be ruled out depending on the type of shooting you intend.


Terry Warner
Canada - Thursday, September 10, 1998 at 23:31:52 (EDT) 


that figures, you would spoil all the fun we could have had over the weekend, must be the teacher in you ? hehe!
I found out the hard (fun) way by shooting the 44mm RPG.
The East German NVA TM´s actually list this affect, but nothing in our Bundeswehr TM´s.

I am visiting with Schmidt & Bender next week Tuesday to pick up a new 34mm, yep 34, Tube diameter Sniper Scope that I´ll take to Lost Wages with me on the 24th.

Any questions you guy´s and Mädels always wanted to ask S&B ?

Torsten <>
Germany - Friday, September 11, 1998 at 02:14:07 (EDT) 

To John Weibel: Welcome! For things you want to buy, sell, or trade, please visit our Emporium. I can tell you, though, that you can get a McMillan A-2 Tactical for your Savage 110FP Tactical. How do I know? Because I have one on mine. However, be forewarned, McMillan is currently being assaulted by many of us on this page for their unbelievably slow delivery time. Still, I feel you get your money's worth with the A-2 Tactical

To SGT Christopher Petite: I HAVE ALWAYS WANTED TO LET GUYS LIKE YOU KNOW HOW REALLY INSENSITIVE (TO OTHERS) IT IS TO TYPE WITH ALL CAPITAL LETTERS! IT MAKES WHAT YOU WRITE MUCH HARDER TO READ. I'M GUESSING YOU MUST BE A MARINE -- CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG. IF YOU ARE TRULY "SHIFT-KEY CHALLENGED," THEN use all lowercase letters. As for the Ruger #1, most of them, for "precision shooting" purposes, are best suited as clubs or canes. If you found one that shoots, consider yourself fortunate. I've had experience with some of them, one in particular that belonged to my Dad (a .30-06 Springfield), and if they shoot, they're fine... but when they don't, they're a bear to MAKE shoot, and most times won't. And for the money it usually takes "trying" (not necessarily "succeeding") getting them to shoot, you could have bought a good bolt gun to begin with. Hey, if you've got a shooter, I'm happy for you... but most of them are, from a surgical accuracy standpoint, a POS... about like the guy whose name is on the rifle. Some people I just can't wait for them to drop dead of a heart attack, if you get my drift. It's really a toss-up who I hate worse: Ruger, the d**khead in charge of Olympic Arms, or "Bubba." And that, coming from me, is quite a statement. If it'll make you feel any better though, SGT Petite, the guy who took third place at Hathcock 2 in Wyoming last month was shooting a Ruger #1 in .270 Winchester. Like I said, some of them shoot -- most don't seem to (not at the level of accuracy that I like, anyway). For a hunting gun, however, they're light, quick-handling, and certainly accurate enough to get the job done.

To Dave: Damn. Becky Bowen at Bushnell told me that the latter is working on a 1,000-yard model. I just KNOW, if I get the 800-yard model, the 1,000-yard model will come out a few months later. Grrrrrrr. I hate these kind of dilemmas.

To Andy: Don't despair. I'm a fan of the .303 British, too.

On the Dillon XL 650: God, could I tell you people horror stories -- oh, not about my Dillon XL 650, but about the Lee Loadmaster that I had before I got my XL 650!!! Long story. Let me synopsize by saying I was NOT as calm in those days as I am now, and after (long story of woe and heartache with Lee Loadmaster skipped for the sake of brevity) becoming "postal" one night due to the piss-poor performance of the Loadmaster (yes, boys and girls, "piss-poor" is a hyphenate), I vowed to not load another round on a progressive press until I had a Dillon XL 650. Yes, the conversions can be expensive, but you have to ask yourself what your time is worth. You can buy the video (which I strongly recommend having on hand when you set up your press) on the XL 650. It's cheap, and it shows you all the wonderful features of the press. I'll never regret having mine. And Jeff is "dead on" about the powder measure -- it's consistency is a direct function of the coarseness of the powder you're using. With this in mind, I recommend using any of the Hodgdon short-cut powders if they will work for your shooting applications. They are more likely to meter smoothly through the powder measure than most of the longer extruded powders.
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, September 11, 1998 at 03:13:09 (EDT) 

I was pointed here to ask my questions about night vision scopes. I am wanting to get something in night vision, and I have heard that there is now a day/night vision scope made by ITT. Is it available for commercial sale? Anyone know a good distributor for ITT night vision? I also heard about a unit that attaches over the front of any scope, made by Simrad, anybody know anything about this? If anyone has any useful info for me regarding this, please e-mail me at Thanks.
James Gray <>
Pittsburg, KS USA - Friday, September 11, 1998 at 09:01:07 (EDT) 
Your either one hell of a shot or lucky!! If you can do that consistently my hats off to you and your Ruger. I agree with Russ and Paul though, I will stick with the Match bullets and the bolt guns.

I have a 550 Dillon and I love it!! I load all my .223s on it with H-335 and it is very accurate with ball powder. The only problem I had was that I got to much bullet run out until I went to the Dillon dies which cured my problem. However when I started loading 308s on it I had the same problem, to much bullet run out to suit me. It would go from .001 to .009 for no apparent reason I even put a benchrest seater die in it an it made no difference. I still haven't figured it out so like Jeff I load my pet loads by hand other than that its a great machine. I like it better than the 650 because if you make a mistake its very easy to back up and correct. I have several friends with the 650s and they swear by them, so I dont feel you can go wrong with either one.Dillon is a great company, they take care of their customers like your family to them.

Great come back you said it all in black and white!!
Pat <>
USA - Friday, September 11, 1998 at 09:46:15 (EDT) 

come on Russell, how do you really feel about Bill Ruger? BTW- did you get that .45 redhawk yet?

What is the way to go on .308 dies? Redding micro adjust?

any suggestions on what to have in a log book? rifle, load, environmental conditions, and POA-POI come to mind...I'm sure I have forgot something
Rich <>
WA USA - Friday, September 11, 1998 at 11:21:02 (EDT) 

Russ: Thanks for the new price info, after I get back I will look into the scope. I'll try to get in touch with you via land line later today.

Torsten: You'll have to cover my spot, I'll be at the beach FOR A WEEK!!!!!!!!!!

To all: If I've missed returning any e-mail please forgive me, (I'm old ya know), I'll try my best to catch up when I get back.

I'll read once more tonight then off to the beach!!!!!!

Out here
Gramps <>
Vacation City, USA - Friday, September 11, 1998 at 11:37:03 (EDT) 

Rick: Yes, you're right about copyrighted log book pages. I was referring to ones like the Army pages which I assume (there's that word) are public domain, or at least that the Army really doesn't care if you copy them for your own use.

And yes, the only way to get exactly the info you feel you need (and no more, which is important) is to make your own. If you look at the NSW sniper log book review you'll see all the info that is on each page. I certainly don't need all of that, but as far as a commercial book goes I'm happy with it. Oh, I forgot to mention to Sarge: The book "The Military and Police Sniper" has quite a few examples in it of various military and custom log pages, so it makes a good reference work if you're going to make your own.
Dave <>
San Jose, CA USA - Friday, September 11, 1998 at 11:44:06 (EDT) 

My Old Man said that shooting with both eyes open is more accurate. I tried that (rifle is non-scoped), and I got double vision. One rifle barrel in front with the sights lined up, and the other looking like it is 3 inches to the righ and about 1.5 down. Is he right? If so, what am I doing wrong?
Crazy J <>
TX USA - Friday, September 11, 1998 at 11:54:13 (EDT) 

Like Pat,I also own a 550B Dillon.Eventhough it is a bit pricey compared with other makes it is worth the money.I can basically tell you that because of its design,it may possibly the only press you need to own;depending on your needs of course.

I say this because eventhough it is considered a progressive press,the 550B can also be used like a single stage press because its shell plate assembly is manually operated.Dillon sells a version of the 550B specifically as a single stage press,so why not get the 550B progrssive and enjoy its dual use capability.

The only gripe I've had is when I used my Lee.38 Spl. dies in the Dillon die tool head.These dies weren't really compatible with the Dillon die tool head because the length of the Lee die is not long enough for adequate adjustment.When I managed to adjust the dies to suit me,the die was nearly out of threads and the lock ring won't tighten as much as I would like.My suggestion is to buy Dillon dies to begin with and avoid any problems with this regard.

Another piece of advice I would give you is if you plan on reloading any pistol calibres then make sure you have at least several primer pick-up tubes so that you are not constantly stopping during reloading to fill up primer tubes.Distractions are a bad thing to have during the reloading process.

Jeff B. <>
Truro, N.S. Canada - Friday, September 11, 1998 at 12:26:51 (EDT) 

There are different schools of thought on this. One says that you focus better with just one eye in use, and the other says that having both eyes open increases light gathering (something like a 20% overall increase I have read) and that having the extra peripheral vision is tactically prudent if that matters to you. There are other factor and opinions too... In practice it seems to be something of a personal choice, and much depends on how you shoot, what you're trying to accomplish and which eye is dominant and by how much. I usually have both eyes open, depending on the weapon and sighting system (I close one eye with higher magnification scopes, like 7x or more.)

Dillon 550: It's great. Mine throws very accurate charges of the powders I have used, accurate to the point my RCBS digital scale can't tell them apart (.1 grain.) Always verify the charge thrown, esp. if you're starting a new session of reloading. Jeff makes a good point about the pickup tubes, when I load up handgun ammo I usually load up 500 primers in extra tubes. The counter is a handy option too. The 550 is probably not the most precise press around though...

Dave <>
San Jose, CA USA - Friday, September 11, 1998 at 15:48:52 (EDT) 

Teal hunt postponed due to flooding, but damn! did we need the rain.
To All: Thanks for the Dillon info. Jeff A. that's exactly the sort of crap I was looking for.
Torsten: You might mention to S&B that we Americans tend to want MORE. As in more eye relief and more elevation adjustment. Most of us would probably also prefer to see a 30mm lineup with the reticle in the second optical plane. Please post details of 34mm when you have them. Is S&B working with anyone in order to provide 34mm rings?
Andrew <>
Austin, TX USA - Friday, September 11, 1998 at 18:02:36 (EDT) 
In regards to question about Night Vision/ITT versus Simrad. Heres a thought, if you use ITT and are hit with someone turning on a room light, you will have to change lenses to daytime. Same scene with Simrad and you already have your day scope. I also love the A2 and A3 stocks but had to wait six months for last one. I am looking for a similar stock as A3 that I wont have to wait for.
Calif. USA - Friday, September 11, 1998 at 18:17:49 (EDT) 
SGT Petite: I failed to mention that I believe the Ruger No. 1 is a really neat rifle. I wouldn't get one for social work but that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it. It was designed to be used to hunt, at reasonable ranges, things that don't shoot back. In my opinion (all politics aside) the No. 1 action is a thing of beauty. It is short, slim and efficient. Because it's small, it doesn't add unnecessary weight and allows the use of a longer barrel (not something that would interest the benchrest crowd but nonetheless important for imparting more velocity to a hunting bullet) for the same overall length when compared to a bolt action. It is also aesthetically pleasing. Being restricted to only one round available in the weapon promotes employment of the principles of marksmanship, knowing you've got to make the first round count. By the same token, some versions of the heavy bolt rifles improperly used for hunting can make the time spent moving over rough terrain just that much less enjoyable. Kind of like using a Lee progressive for the purpose of reloading ammunition. I mean, enjoyment is why we hunt, right?

The Dillon XL 650...I get an average of .007" runout when I load .223s in Hornady dies. Dillon claims their's are straight but I haven't tried them in anything other than pistol calibers. Sorry for using the "P" word, Russ. The powder measure's slight inaccuracy with coarse powders isn't a big deal. Before, when I had to weigh charges because my Lyman 55 measure was so inconsistant, my wife had to cut orders on me to get me to come to dinner from the garage. Any charge weight variation of .5 grains or less can probably not be proven to degrade accuracy in a particular weapon when the average human is firing it. Maybe Carlos could prove it but he's one in a million. I'd say, for our purposes, the Dillon powder measure is second to none. It's fast and it's accurate enough. BTW, I actually gave away both of my Lyman 55s. Less time in the garage means more time on the range.
Paul J. Headlee <>
Ogden, KS USA - Friday, September 11, 1998 at 18:17:51 (EDT) 

To Andy: Your 303 rifle
I cant help you with everything but I can tell you what I do know. I didnt reply earlier, just to give some other guys a chance to show off.
Your rifle was made by the Stevens rifle company. U.S. property is a dead giveaway on that. The No.4 mk1* was a modification made by Stevens and Canadian Long Branch to the receiver to prevent the loss of the extractor springs when removing the bolt from the weapon. Being also marked mk 1/3 means that it was later modified in the way that the trigger is fastened to the receiver. A change over from being fastened to the trigger guard to the butt socket. The letters FTR stands for Factory Thorough Repair. That means that sometime the rifle went back to the factory to be brought back up to snuff. I dont have my reference manuals handy for the barrel markings, maybe someone else can help you with that.
I use either 150 hornady bullets or 174 gr. .311 matchkings in my 303 and imr4895 powder. I also recommend using Lee neck sizing dies as long as you can to make the cases last longer.
To Mr. Russell E. Taylor: Did you get my pictures?
comments would be welcome.
Steve <>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Friday, September 11, 1998 at 19:14:58 (EDT) 
I guess a lot of you know by now that Redfield has declared bankruptcy and has gone out of business.What I would like to know if any of you out there know if you can purchase any of their remaining stock of scopes at bargain basement prices.

I've had my eye on Redfield's 6x24 40mm obj. with target turrets and would welcome the opportunity to buy one at a reduced price.

I checked their web page,from the link here at Sniper Country, but it appears to be down(no suprise here if they are now out of business).

I also wonder if you can purchase from them directly because I can't imagine their dealers wishing to bring in any more of their product.

Any help would be appreciated.
Jeff B. <>
Truro, N.S. Canada - Friday, September 11, 1998 at 19:40:31 (EDT) 

Sarge, using his newly camo'd cane, finds his way from his hide and FIRES - in the X of course:

OK nobody seems to like the way most of the log/data/record books are setup and the amount of information you're "supposed" to put in. IF YOU where going to "design" a log:
What information would you want to put in it?
What size would it be?
What type of binding - or whatever to hold it together - would you want?
Would you have it on both sides of the sheet or only one?
What "supplemental" pages/tables would you want to include?
Would you use pre-printed dividers or blanks?
What type of "paper" would you put it on?
What type of cover would you have?
What else would you want/need that I haven't thought of??

This should get interesting!

MIRACLE - Sarges sight returns! Throwing away his cane he QUICKLY ducks into his hide and again awaits incoming!

Sarge <>
Area 51, NM USA - Friday, September 11, 1998 at 19:40:55 (EDT) 

To Rich: No, no .45 Redhawk yet. It's still on the list of toys I want though, but when I get it, I'm taking it over to my gunsmith, having him remove the barrel, slap it on his lathe, and remove all the CRAP written on the barrel... including, of course, the name of the manufacturer. There's no arguing Ruger makes strong revolvers -- I just have a major beef with people who take a stand against the provisions, implied or specified, of the Second Amendment.

To Ed: You're welcome.

On log books: I was going to copy the one in Plaster's manual (giving due credit, of course), but after many recent comments I'll pass. However, if one of you would like to design what will become the Sniper Country Log Book, I'll make it available on this website. I can handle most formats (WordPerfect 6.1 and 7.0, Word 6.0, all older versions, as well as text files of course). I'm even willing to post multiple designs for visitors who would like a choice.

On reloading dies: I'm poor, so when I blow money from time to time, it's for something that I think is worth spending the extra money. After a LOT of research, I bought Redding Competition dies for my "serious" .308 Winchester loading. They have a very good reputation for low bullet runout and consistent tolerances.

To Jeff B.: The trick for using Lee dies is to NOT put the locking ring on the TOP, but to put it on from the BOTTOM (below the tool head). This is what I've always done, and it saved me having to buy several replacement dies. I had the same problem as you described, but to me, the solution was obvious.

Yes, "Redfield is no more." The EPA shut them down (don't screw with the EPA, guys). The problem wasn't Redfield's fault, but the responsibility for fixing the problem was theirs. The cost was going to be too much, so they closed operations.

To Steve: Yes, I did. "THANK YOU" for zipping them!!! Good pictures. (Helpful suggestion: Next time, use a bigger font for the red text.) You definitely knew what you were talking about, concerning the FUBAR in Saving Private Ryan. I thought it was interesting how you adapted the rings/mount for elevation rather than deflection. Good thinking.

To Sarge: I just read your post, on log books. Hopefully, we'll get some good submissions.

In the matter of Monica Lewinsky, cigars, Ken Starr, and all things "Bubba" -- take it somewhere else. I'm just being proactive here, because Starr's report is now available on the Internet. EXCERPTS FROM IT DO NOT BELONG HERE! If you guys want to banter back and forth among yourselves, via E-mail, have at it. If you're dying to read the report, for which there are MANY locations for your accessing pleasure, you can find a copy at

Well, I'll be heading out for Des Moines in just a few minutes (Reserve duty this weekend). If I can get online over the weekend, I'll check in and see what's going on.
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, September 11, 1998 at 21:04:31 (EDT) 

Rich: You asked about dies. I beleive Russ mentioned the Redding Comp. Bullet Seater. I agree. They do exactly as the micrometer "says" they do. You crank down 0.020 " on the die, your bullet gets seated that much. I'm always checking it w/ a bullet comparator on a dial caliper. And it is always accurate.

Russ: Have a good weekend. BTW, take a WILD guess as to the first prog. reloader yours truly was dumb enough to buy. Her's a hint: In a very short period of time, I'm jumping up and down in a purple-headed, ax murdering rage spraying spittle mixed with blood as I cursed the day I was born for purchasing... THE LEE LOAD BASTARD .

Mr. Bain: Mr. Ryan emailed back and is snail mailing some info. about Storm Mountain. Maybe I'll get a chance in '99 to attend. Meanwhile, I'll be trying to make ready. I got some preparing to do.. Again, thank you.
Jeff A. <>
Having nauseous loadmaster flashbacks in Smyrna, Ga USA - Friday, September 11, 1998 at 22:34:33 (EDT) 

James Gray - REF: ITT Day Night scope, yes they are working on a model for the SOF community and no it is not availiable to the civilian market. I have seen and played with the scope and it is not 100% as of now. We have made suggestions and they are still playing. The SIMRAD 200 or 250 are good models, but use them with 6 to 8 x scopes, or use a variable power and find the best power with your setup. Higher magnification causes distortion caused by over magnification of the phosphorus matrix. In Saudi Arabia we could hit targets to 600 with the SN250 but positive identification was impossible due to the 10x scopes we were using. Be prepared to shell out some big bucks for the new SIMRADs with Enhanced Gen 3 technology. For those of you with more money to burn, SIMRAD also makes a laser range finder that you can hook the SN200 up to and laser a target at night. The combo works, but it sure is expensive!

Torsten - Sorry man, I wasn't thinking clearly when I answered your question. I'm surprised that your TM didn't have that info. I was taught that little tid bit back in the early 70s.

Another thought on log books. They are for practice, mainly. When on site you would want all your pertinent dope info for your ammo, ranges, weather, etc. on a single card that can be used with minimum fuss. Your range card would then have the rest of your dope info for holds, scope settings, reference points with dope etc. This would make info retrival easy and mistake free during the stress of your shot. And stress is an understatement.

Have fun and hold hard!
Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Friday, September 11, 1998 at 22:43:37 (EDT) 

Laser Ranging ?
Is there a way to find out/make sure that the laser beam is going were you are sighting the thing at? Or are you just measuring the surroundings???.
One should think that when tactically ranging an object from a prone position that due to the very small angle between the target/laser and the ground one would get interference and that if the laser was not on line/axis with your reticle/line of sight that mistakes would be preprogrammed.
And if your in the worm mode and the laser is only 10 inches above ground and ranging an object at hmmmm, say 500 Meters this would make a pretty slim angle and leave little room for beam coaxial mistake, causing major rangeing variations.
Input anyone? I would think that ranging a white cárdboard disk on a thin stick against the horizon at a set distance could give an clue ?? Maybe rotating the laser could show a coaxial mistake also: is the target the same distance when I hold the Laser upside down ???

I´ll just have to get one at the Shot Show and play with it.
I think its a good tool to practise range estimation by eye, dont you think so Depity Dave ??

Rick: the 70´s! I did a presentation on a LAW during JROTC in 78 and should have rembered, well S happens.

34 mm: EAW in Germany make rings for the new scope, more on wednesday.

Torsten <>
Germany - Saturday, September 12, 1998 at 03:42:47 (EDT) 

Now on to the subject of field craft...

I bought an EK Bowie a while back and I am having trouble getting it to take an edge. Has anyone out there had any dealings with EK?
Ferguson <>
WF, TX USA - Saturday, September 12, 1998 at 11:20:41 (EDT) 

To Gooch, Mr Bain & the rest of you wacko's.
Sat here for almost an hour and laughed my ass off, damn near was late for work. Great info, no static to FNG's. And just a real nice feel to the whole place.
My take on the bug juice issue, SSS never worked for me and the smell is just not very tactical. Cutters always worked well for me Off as well. During my brief stay at Ft Bragg (chigger capital of the world) I used powdered sulfur to dust myself and it seemed to work very well. Also taking a double dose of B vitamins is alledged to help ward off the blood suckers. But your piss turns bright yellow.
As for camo stick vs cream or compact. Cream, hands down easy to get on and off and it seemed to be as durable as the old GI stick without having to melt it with a lighter or soak the end in bug juice.
I can't say I'm a great rifle marksman but the Savage's I've owned (looked at the price of a LH Rem or Win lately?) shot as well as the man pulling the trigger. Well that's my take on it.

Gunner, Sabot, Deer?????
John <>
of angels, of confusion USA - Saturday, September 12, 1998 at 12:02:31 (EDT) 

To John: "Wackos?" Hmmmm. Well, just the same... welcome aboard, John.

"Gunner, sabot, deer?" Are you a brother tanker?

That's the second recommendation I've seen recently about using sulfur powder. I'm going to have to look into it. Where can you buy it?
Russell E. Taylor <>
Des Moines, IA USA - Saturday, September 12, 1998 at 12:16:18 (EDT) 

I've seen some comment lately on EAW rings.

I've gotten them from New England Custom Gun.


Butch Fuller <>
N'awlins, LA USA - Saturday, September 12, 1998 at 15:45:49 (EDT) 

I was wondering if anyone knew for a fact the most powerful, yet accurate rifle available to civilians right now. I was also looking for the best scope. I was leaning towards a scope like the charecter "God" had in the Navy SEALs movie. With motion, thermal, night and starlight. If anyone knows of this scope AND/OR a powerful/accurate rifle please e-mail me with all the info i can get, and i am willing to travel. Thankyou for reading.
The Ultimate Sniper <SniperX74>
Ei, NY USA - Saturday, September 12, 1998 at 16:07:04 (EDT) 
To "Mr. SniperX74:" It's pretty hard to send you E-mail since you didn't leave a valid E-mail address. I suspect you are, as they say, "trolling."

It's been a long time since I last saw the movie to which you referred, but if the scope you mentioned is like the scopes in most other "Hollyweird" flicks, it was probably just a fabrication for the movie. If you're "for real," then give us a name and a valid E-mail address. Otherwise, if you are as I suspect, then get off our website, finish your homework, and do the dishes for your mom.
Russell E. Taylor <>
Des Moines, IA USA - Saturday, September 12, 1998 at 16:52:54 (EDT) 

I just came out of dark ages and started loading moly coated bullets. I shot some Bergers with good results, so I bought a kit from MidWay. The MidWay Process seems easy, but I have a concern. Is it normal for the Molly to get on your hands when you load them. I didn't see a much when I loaded Bergers but the ones I coated get all over my hands. Have I done something wrong. Any help will be appreciated. Thanks Guys
Cali. USA - Saturday, September 12, 1998 at 19:04:41 (EDT) 
I never had much faith in becoming dependent upon stuff that's not in the supply system. We get issued sun screen and stick camo. Put a thin coat of sun screen on your face and hands before applying the camo. The camo goes on easily and quite thick. No need to heat the end of the camo and then stick it onto your face (duh). Bug juice works too, like John said, but the cap never seems to stay on and bug juice will do a number on your ammo pouch or first aid field dressing pouch. On a somewhat related matter, Goo Gone removes 100 mph tape residue from LBE without fusing or staining.
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@networksplus. net>
Ogden, KS USA - Saturday, September 12, 1998 at 20:41:52 (EDT) 
Russ - You are quite right about the scope in that SEAL movie. It could see through walls!! I laughed so hard I almost peed myself. On the sulfur, it works against crawlies and hoppers, not too well against those flying buzzers.

Paul - The compacts are now in the army system and issued. All the "new" snipers get a brand new one with their "Ghillie Suit" Kit. I tell them the mirror is to show them who got them caught on the stalks.

Torsten - On the laser being confused, this is very possible and why the good lasers have a knob to ignore any readings less than whatever you set. The problem is when you have a worm's eye view of the world, alot of laser strength is burned up by the grass, brush, and trash right to your front. Mil Dots, on the other hand, work fine as long as you can see the outline of a known sized target. :-) Measure the target by Mil Dot then set your laser to ignore anything less than 50 meters from your reading with the Mils. This will get you a better reading and confirm your distance.

Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Saturday, September 12, 1998 at 21:24:55 (EDT) 

Andy as a .303 fan I would like to say that the butt ugly piece I have shoots a pretty decent group. >1" 100M . On the longer ranges it does prety good too. I shoot regular Remington skeet at ranges up to 300M. The sights that are on the #4MK1* are not very good. I replace mine with a sight from a #4MK2 and fabricated a windage adjustment tool to "get me by". I will later put better sight on the rifle but that is for the future.

For anybody who knows what is a popular caliber that is necked down (anything from .30 down to the .22's) from standard .303 round? I'm thinking about re barrelling my #4MK2 and I feel the need fer something a little smaller.

Confederate <>
PossumTown, Mississippi USA - Saturday, September 12, 1998 at 22:53:56 (EDT) 

Scott, Russ, any and all - My shooting partner bought a PSS a few weeks ago. He was wondering if he can put a Win. M-70 trigger guard/ floorplate on it. But my question is what about the magazine. I have never paid any attention to the assembly but can the trigger guard be mounted without using the floorplate.


Brent <>
Shreveport, Louisiana USA - Saturday, September 12, 1998 at 23:05:25 (EDT) 

God- ? The character in the Movie? ( if you want to call it that) wasn't GOD, he was in the God spot which is what SEALS refer to for the /50 cal sniper SWS. The equipment was hollywoodish.

Lasers- Mr. Bain and I just finished an article yet unpublished on rangfinders. It documents our experience and observatiion of the Bushnell's, Tasco's, Leica's ( Geovid, VEctor and Viper ) XLR, and Impulse II K. All had difficulties with the issue mentioned. I often got wildly mixed readings from the same target due to object or ground interference. You can "tune" out close objects on some systems. You still have difficulty with the width of the beam hitting something between you and the target. This is a real issue when the target is behind some other mass and only slightly above it.
Jim Craig <>
USA - Saturday, September 12, 1998 at 23:37:13 (EDT) 

I'm buying a Bushnell Tactical Scope ... I know it has a recessed obj lens and a glint filter eliminating the need for a sun shade ... Does anyone know if Butler Creek makes a sun shade that will work on this scope ??? Or will Leupold sun shades work on this scope ???
Sam Cushway III <>
Michigan City, IN USA - Sunday, September 13, 1998 at 02:04:39 (EDT) 
Mike: I have a Midway Molly Kit and YES you get molly all over your fingers when reloading. The stuff washes off fairly easy, but I suppose you could wear surgical gloves if it bothers you.
Mike O'Brien <>
Evansville, WY USA - Sunday, September 13, 1998 at 02:26:31 (EDT) 
Kodiak: I'm in New Orleans this weekend and found Simmons & Tasco 800 meter laser rangefinders for $180 at a gun show here. Please e-mail me by noon on Sunday, (9/13), with your snail mail address if you would like me to pick one up for you.
Mike O'Brien <>
Evansville, WY USA - Sunday, September 13, 1998 at 02:31:17 (EDT) 
Hi Guys,

I was wondering if anyone has had any experience with the UARS stock system yet. Is there a review on them anywhere that I can be steered to.

Thanks and best wishes

Beaker <>
aust - Sunday, September 13, 1998 at 07:24:49 (EDT) 

Russ: Sounds like "Sniper X74" needs a Savage.

Rick: I guess the Army having money for compacts is a spinoff of getting rid of 4 divisions. ;-) I turn in my 4187 for retirement this week. :-(
Paul J. Headlee <>
Ogden, KS USA - Sunday, September 13, 1998 at 08:39:29 (EDT) 

Hey Everybody: I'm Baaaaccckk! Well Russ, I just have a little blurb on the Bill C. and Monica L. matter. It is a shame it has come down to hanging dirty laundry on the White House's back yard, but maybe it is time for us to stand a little taller, hold out heads a little higher and walk with a bigger attitude like never before. I'm still damn proud of our country (although I dislike the politiks) and when I was oversea this past weekend, it just reminds every time I go, how great we have it here. The countries which I visited would gladly sell the souls of their children just to be here in the USof A. God I love this place!!!

Now that Russ took away my soap box, about the 30/338 and 300 Win Mag matter. The general feeling is that the 300 Win Mag is the wasy to go, specifically because not everyone are NUTSO handloads like most of us are and the legalities of using handloaded cartridges in service rifles. But I have decided to use an UARS stock for a long Remington action, when they come out. I was impressed with the whole assembly of it and the completely free floating barrel. The metal and stock has minimal contact points which relieve critical stress points also. (Beakert: Law enforcement magazine several months back had a great article about the UARS ssystem).

The rate of twist it think will be either a 1-9 or 1-8 . I'm open to suggestions on this one. 1 in 10 is pretty much the industry standard, but will not accomodate the 240 grainers.

Russ: The .340 Weatherby, although I feel is a great all around hunting cartridge has only a limited variety of built weights available. An Russ, since I've got your arttention right now, Is Armalite coming out with a new TACTICAL rifle for the military which will have a completely shrouded barrel?? Come on, cough up this information!

Brent: Win 70 on a 700 Rem action! I don't think so! Only with a lot of expensive modifications. They don't love each other that much.

Sam Cushing: You didn't mention if your tactical scope was a Bausch and Lomb or a Bushnell. I don't believe that Bushnell offers a tactical. B/L I know does. B/L tactical scopes will not fit Leopold sun shades (or visa Versa) They don't love each other that much either. But BUtler Creek does make a scope cover for it.

Bug off Stuff: I was a Walmart last night and saw some bug repellent and picked it up and saw it had 29% DEET. You don't want to rub that stuff to close to your balls, because you may never have kids again if they don't fall off first.

Hey Gentlmen: I'm outta here. But I'll be back!!


Al Ostapowicz <>
Mantua, the Potato Capital of the World in, The Blissful State of Ohio USA - Sunday, September 13, 1998 at 09:34:43 (EDT) 

To Mike O'Brien:
Mike thanks for the offer of picking uo one of those rangefinders for me but I think I'll wait a while before I get one. I'm hoping that like most electronic things this will get better and cheaper. Once all the bugs are worked out I'll start looking at these again. I appreciate your offer though. Thanks !
USA - Sunday, September 13, 1998 at 11:01:40 (EDT) 
Mike, I had the same problem with moly from Midway rubbing off on my hands. I think it's normal. I tumbled the bullets for about 30-40 min and I would always get it all over my hands. Now, I started tumbling them for a little longer (about 60-70 min) and I threw some BBs in the tumbler too. I barely got anything on my hands when I got ready to load. I don't know if it was the BBs or the different timing, you might wanna try that.
oh USA - Sunday, September 13, 1998 at 11:53:59 (EDT) 
Hey thanks for all the help with the molly. I am going to try the BB's and see if it helps. I have noticed alot of guys in here use 300WinMag's as I do. I have been using IMR7828 and 220Sierra BTHP's with good luck. T would like to use 190's but can't find a cam for my Mk4 M-3 for the 190's. I know it must exist eventhough Leupold says it doesn't. Doesn't the military use 190's in the M24 300's?
Mike <DMMDNLN@aol>
Calif. USA - Sunday, September 13, 1998 at 14:28:52 (EDT) 
On moly coating: I used to think it was no big deal to just dump the bullets into the tumbler without cleaning them first but I have, over time, noticed a marked difference between cleaned bullets and uncleaned bullets, with respect to how well the moly adheres to them. There are different methods, including spraying them with brake cleaner and wiping them down but the method I use is to just boil some water, throw in a little dish soap, then pour in my bullets and let them boil for a few minutes or so. Then, I rinse them with clean water and dry them off. After letting them set for a substantial period of time, to ensure theyre dry, Ill toss them into the tumbler. The coating process really does seem to be more successful if I clean them first. As for moly messes, I tumble my coated bullets in corncob media for a few minutes (just a few) and then load them. Lastly, as I remove them from the press after seating the bullet, I lightly wipe each bullet (I stress, lightly) with a paper towel. I dont have a problem with getting a little moly on me, because it washes right off.

To Al: You should post your question to the ArmaLite Forum.

To Paul: Congratulations on your upcoming retirement!

To Sam: Bushnell does not make a tactical scope under the Bushnell name, but they do, as has been pointed out, under the Bausch & Lomb name. Mr. Bain has one and hes very happy with it. We have a review of the scope on this site.

To Jim Craig: JIM!!! Hello??? I need that data I requested!!! Yesterday would be fine. :-)

Russell E. Taylor <>
Des Moines, IA USA - Sunday, September 13, 1998 at 14:39:24 (EDT) 

Subject: Indicating ammo

Does anyone have experience with ammo which gives a visible mark when it hits a target. I'm thinking of API or incendary rounds which will flash when it hits. With normal ammo it's rarely possible to see bullet impact at over a few hundred yards even with a spotting scope. What kind of targets respond well to impact? (dirt, rock, tree, masonry, steel). I'm interested in military style ammo, .30 and .50 cal.

In some conditions one shot accuracy isn't practical but
making quality corrections to the seoond shot seems like
a good idea.

Louis Boyd <>
Patagonia, Arizona USAU - Sunday, September 13, 1998 at 20:35:14 (EDT) 

Subject: Redfield Bankrupt?
They have been bought by Blount which is the umbrella company for RCBS, Outers/Weaver, Federal ammo, and a couple of others.
Check: and click on NEWS
Maybe all is not lost for Redfield.

Lou Boyd <>
Pagagonia, Arizona USAUæ - Sunday, September 13, 1998 at 21:18:41 (EDT) 


Here in Australia the .303 was the standard military rifle for a LOT of years, one of the most common conversions here is the 303-25, using a .257 cal projectile. Drop me a line via E-Mail to the below address and I will give you some bullet weight options for this conversion, I will also talk to my 'smith and ask about other conversion options he has seen. .303's are so common down here that conversions are very popular.
Dave Groves <>
Canberra, ACT Australia - Sunday, September 13, 1998 at 21:27:59 (EDT) 

As to cleaning bullets prior to molying them....try some denatured alcohol in spray bottle with bullets spread out on old fast , easy and dries quick !!
I tumble mine in an old Lortone lapidary it better than the vibrator type.....afterwards, take moly'd bullets and roll them in another towel to take off excess moly....I don't use carnuba wax....still get excellant results. Later
Will <>
Heart of Dixie, USA - Sunday, September 13, 1998 at 21:49:57 (EDT) 
what you want was called the "B-Patrone" and was a special WWII German sniper observation round which contained a small ammount of flash powder a primer and a firing pin. It was detonated by the small fireing pin that was held in place by a steel sleeve and only the impact of the bullet could overcome the friction and the pin would hit the primer and detonate the WP with a flash going backward towards the shooter. They are a collectors item now, but I have seen someone shoot a couple and the still worked after 60 years.
At gun shows over here you can find them as cutaway samples, but they say that about 1 out of 3 blows up while milling them open "under water"!
As with any bullet that is made up from diffrent components these are not preforming like the standard round, so my best bet would be to practise,practise,practise watching the bullet trace.

Ende !

Torsten <>
Germany - Monday, September 14, 1998 at 02:41:02 (EDT) 

Confederate/Dave Groves,

on the conversion of the 303. Just one thing to remember, and seriously keep in mind, is the strength of those receivers. Depending on which ones exactly you would want to convert, when built where etc., you will have to stay within the pressure specs of the original 303 rounds. Those receivers are not made for magnum calibres, and if you do push them, you might get blow-ups, with serious consequences to the shooter.

Remember, keep it safe.

Marius <>
Pretoria, GAUTENG RSA - Monday, September 14, 1998 at 03:16:08 (EDT) 

Hi Russ Yep I was a CDAT back in the 80's at Ma Benning's School for boys with 197th slave brigade. Although I'd heard they accounted nicely for themselfs in the Gulf.
As for sulfur, you should be able to get it at your local pharamcy, you may have to ask for it behind the counter.

Paul I see your point about the suppy system, on the other hand I never saw anything resembling issue sun screen during my brief stay in the service nor was any of the camo stick we got our hands on remotely new. Not as tanker they let us play in the mud very much :)

To ALL: Can any one recommend loads for 7mm Rem Mag. Am also thinking about Rebarreling to 300 Win mag. Comments/opinions (you know what "they" say about those)

Thanks John

John <>
Pueblo, CO USA - Monday, September 14, 1998 at 06:13:29 (EDT) 

I am seeking the address for an agency who can repair a Leatherwood ART scope. The elevation adjustment is inoperable rendering it useless. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance.

Lt. Richard B McCreary <>
Columbus, OH USA - Monday, September 14, 1998 at 08:54:39 (EDT) 

Jim Craig,
Welcome back!! I thought maybe you got lost out there in that big wide open country. Shawn called last night, he is joing MAJ. Brewer's guard unit, he ask about you and I told him I hadn't heard a word from you on the "Net" and thought maybe you were doing some training some place. He went down to Neb. this week end and the Maj. showed him around. He's really excited about it.I'll be sure to tell him your alive and well!!!

Texas Brigade does the modification that your talking about on their rifles but I dont know if they offer one thats already done for a "Bolt on" or if they have to make modifications to the rifle too. You might contact them, their address is on the Sniper Country web sight.

When are you "Pulling the pin"?? Will you still be there after the first of the year?? Did you talk Dolan into taking your place yet?? I should have the T-shirts in about 2 weeks the deputy who takes care of that is in New York on a special and wont be back for another week.

I would rather take a beating than to tell you this but I owe it to you for all the crap I give you. All of us guys who call coyotes have a shoot every year (At cardboard coyote targets at unknown ranges out to about 400yds)and the guy who won it this year used a SAVa#*... I'am sorry Russ I just cant say it, but you get the idea(HA)
Pat <>
USA - Monday, September 14, 1998 at 10:20:39 (EDT) 


HA, how's THAT for being PC :-)

I was scanning through rec.guns tonight, and got the following, no takers there yet:

"This here is a question I have never had explained satisfactorily.Some one with a physics/military background may know.
If you had an airplane flying at the speed of sound and it fires its machine guns(lets be silly and say they were .22 LR Machine guns because it makes it simpler to visualise,ie the bullet is also 1100fps approx)
Ok, the airplane is flying at 1100fps(lets not get too precise) at sea level and shoots thru a chronometer ( OK its difficult I know). What is the reading?
The part I am really interested in is he also has another .22LR machine gun pointed to the rear and fires thru the chronograph backwards as he passes(yes, I know we are getting difficult now!)
What are the respective approximate velocities as read by the chronometer?
Common sense tells me one thing, logic seems to suggest another."

Anyone with any clever mathematical equations? I have my ideas, but I'm not too sure, so I'll rather wait before I show my ignorance too openly :-)

Marius Ferreira <>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Monday, September 14, 1998 at 13:56:27 (EDT) 


It's me again, and this time I've got something that I think will interest you. I've just started reading the book "Ballistics in Perspective" by Mike LaGrange - about bullet/calibre choice for ( big game ) hunting in Africa, mainly Zimbabwe. Originally written in 1983, the current version was brought out in 1990.

In the introduction he talks some about wildcatting, and then he mentions what I want to put here:

"Recently I heard of a 1,000 grain bullet being tested which produces a muzzle energy in the region of 14,000 ft/lbs;"

This boils down to about 2510 fps at the muzzle. From something I read last year I'm sure he's talking about the .700 Nitro Express. Might be a .600, but I doubt it, and definately not a pop-gun smaller than that.

Now how about that for something nice up-close and personal. :-)

Depending on the BC that might do some interesting things a bit downrange...

Marius Ferreira <>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Monday, September 14, 1998 at 14:23:14 (EDT) 

To all:
I have been testing some surplus recovered military rifle powder marketed by Talon Manufacturing Co. The stuff sells for $18.00 for a #2 lb can. I have gotten good results with this stuff, which is marked IMR-4895 on the can, and looks like Dupont IMR-4895 but is definitly not the same stuff. I had to pretty much throw the reloading manuals out the window for this surplus powder. Prudendce dictactes that I not tell anyone just how much different I had to adjust the load to achieve normal velocities and normal pressures. I will just say that there is no longer any airspace in a 30-06 case when loading 150 grain bullets to get 2800 f.p.s. Has anyone else tried this stuff and gotten similar results?
I have also been playing with the .30 cal 155gr. Sierra Palma bullet lately and I find that they outshoot the 168's as well as the 175's. Again I ask, has anyone else out there tried these bullets yet?
Steve <>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Monday, September 14, 1998 at 18:32:10 (EDT) 
i came across this page a few months ago and have logged on at least once a week since. always good reading. thanks all. a question please. any
one have a few pet loads for 300 win mag they'd like to share? my fave is 74.5 gr. of imr 4831 with a 200 gr. speer hpbt. up here we have a couple of rifle ranges and we're seeing more and more black & camo'd bolt rifles. sometimes in a great while, the owner can shoot a little. anyone know of practical/tactical matches open to civilians in the northwest? fairwinds to all.
jim liles <>
portland, or. USA - Monday, September 14, 1998 at 18:47:01 (EDT) 
Besides the 8mm rounds Torsten mentioned, there's also the more modern solution as seen in some types of .50BMG SLAP ammo and so on, where a zirconium(?) tip is used which produces a good signature of sparks on a hard target like an AFV. But I don't think it works on softer surfaces, and certainly the sparks may not be disireable for the LE sniper... I don't recall any of these tricky rounds being perfect, probably the most reliable thing I can think of would be a good spotter.

Dave <>
San Jose, CA USA - Monday, September 14, 1998 at 20:28:34 (EDT) 

Subject: Surplus Powder
I agree there a very good deals on surplus powder because of our government requiring that surplus ammo be broken apart as a condition of sale. There are also good deals on brass and pulled bullets, although the bullets are of questionable value after pulling.
But surplus powder must be treated differently from the "canister" powder which is commonly used for realoading. One can of IMR 4064 performs a lot like the next can of IMR 4064 and the manufacturers go to a lot of work to keep it that way. The powder from 30-06 rounds pulled from one lot may be quite a bit different from a lot made in a different year or by a different manufacturer. If they are of the same type, i.e. ball or extruded, they are likely to be sold as the same powder. Don't assume that if you buy several containers of the "same kind" of surplus powder they will perform the same. If you have the time and care to experiment the surplus powders are a good deal and may perform very well. I use surplus powder to reload .50 BMG. and it saves quite a bit, but I don't find it worth the effort to test surplus powder for smaller calibers.

Lou Boyd <>
Patagonia, Arizona USAU - Monday, September 14, 1998 at 20:29:31 (EDT) 

On bug dope: anyone tried oil of citronella? It's supposed to be a good "natural" bug repellent. Someone recommended that I put a little in my house paint to keep the bugs from landing in the fresh paint and making a mess (I was painting smack in the middle of bug season). Seemed like it worked to some extent, but then I had no idea what the proper dose per gallon of paint was. Disadvantage might be the rather strong, pungent smell, which bugs may find repulsive, but someone beating the bushes looking for you might find...attractive. I read somewhere also that oil of pennyroyal is also said to repel bugs, but it has a strong minty smell. The book also said it was used in the old days to induce abortions?!

Marking, sparking bullets:Just thinking out loud here, if you don't need them by the thousand, how about lighter flints stuck into a hollow point that has been carefully and concentrically sized to receive them?

I recently got broken into, guys. Just a quick word to those of you who may have become complacent, as I did: If you live where there isn't somebody around all the time, locks and alarms don't mean much. Keep it stashed deep and locked up. I always knew it could happen, but I also "knew" it could never be tomorrow. They got a few guns, and now I feel like I've let the community down. Looking at the young State Trooper who came to investigate, I couldn't help thinking, "You are in more danger today than yesterday because I didn't have my things properly squared away".

MH, they didn't get your .45 WinMag Redhawk.
NFC <>
3R, MI USA - Monday, September 14, 1998 at 21:18:37 (EDT) 

Marius: That's like asking what would happen if you were driving 186,000 mph and turned on your headlights. Your bullet would go about 2200 fps. If on the other hand you entered a steep dive after firing a burst, you could conceiveably catch up to your bullets and shoot yourself down. Since your bullets would slow down but your plane would either speed up or remain constant your paths could eventually intersect. The NRA has a firearms fact book which addresses this issue & that's where I read about it some years ago. OK, let the attack begin...
Paul J. Headlee <>
Ogden, KS USA - Monday, September 14, 1998 at 21:24:18 (EDT) 
I wanted to buy a good long range rifle for hunting. I'm not sure what i should choose so if anyone has any suggestions, please post them.

USA - Tuesday, September 15, 1998 at 00:23:46 (EDT) 

To Lou: Lou! Welcome back to the fold! It's good to see you here again! Blount (properly pronounced "Blunt" if anyone cares) bought Redfield? It'll be interesting to see how THIS transaction ends up.

To Will: Thanks for the tip on cleaning bullets prior to coating them. Much obliged.

To "Brother John:" I started as a DAT in 1982 (A3s) then evolved into a CDAT. Proud of it, too! Welcome to our website, John! Thanks for the tip on where to find sulfur powder.

To Jim Craig: I got the information you sent me -- THANK YOU! (Did anyone get any GOOD pictures of the trophies that Tactical Shooter magazine donated? If so, please let me know.)

To Pat: I know how that pained you to tell me about the SAVAGE user WINNING your coyote match... but come on now, don't you feel better for saying it? :-)

To Marius: The Express "line" of offerings has always appealed to me. Not much for long-range engagements, but they do well on elephants, rhinos, and younger, medium-weight Naugas... and also make great "door greeters."

To NFC: Sorry to hear about your break-in. I'm just like you, I don't want to "let the community down" by letting my guns end up on the streets. Seriously, I know how you must have felt. For that reason, I bought a gun safe some years ago, from the Sportsman Steel Safe company in Long Beach, CA. It was as strong and affordable as I could get and has suited me well. Most of us on this page have more wrapped up in our guns than some people do in their cars; it's just an accident waiting to happen if you don't have a "quality" safe. What did it for me, after debating it to myself for a LONG time, was... an NCO friend of mine, in my last unit, had his inventory ripped off. Guys, we're talking "match-grade" stuff -- ALL OF IT. Rifles, pistols, revolvers... ALL match-grade quality. He had more wrapped up in gunsmithing alone than you could ever imagine. One day it was there, the next day... it wasn't.

He did not have a gun safe.

Immediately after learning of what happened to him, I took out a small "signature" loan from my credit union, and bought my safe. Hey, guys, listen. It's NOT just the guns you'd be losing... it's all the quality gunsmithing. Some insurance companies don't "understand" why you are "claiming" XXX dollars, because you paid so-and-so (insert "big" name here) to do the trigger, et cetera. And what if it was one of the older "names" in the gunsmithing business -- and he's been dead for years?

I've been through it all, checking around -- and it's just a LOT cheaper (and feels better, frankly) to have a gun safe, than to try insuring everything with add-on "riders." Once I put everything into my safe, it was AMAZING the GOOD feeling I experienced... but up until then, I'd had guns all over the house... in the closet, under the bed, in the basement, under the couch in the living room... well, you get the idea.

If you don't have a gun safe, buy one. Today. This second.

(And Matt, I'm glad they didn't get your custom .45 Win Mag Redhawk.)

To Yull: You said you want "to buy a good long range rifle for hunting?"

Oh? Well, um... listen, Yull... would you mind making the rest of us feel a lot better about you by telling us that you're NOT talking about taking mule deer at 800 yards? What did you have in mind for this rifle you want?
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Tuesday, September 15, 1998 at 01:59:04 (EDT) 


now you're bringing up an interesting point there. I know this is not quite in line with our discussions here ( who's seen a bullet travelling at the speed of light? ). BUT, it would be interesting to see what would happen with that light. It would not simply go at double the speed of light, if faster than speed of light at all. This is at the boundary where the normal laws of physics does not apply any more - I am not sure WHAT applies.

Getting back to the bullets from the plane. In the ideal situation the bullet would travel 2200 fps forward, and drop straight down out the back. Of course this does not take into consideration the effect of the increased resistance of the effective 1100fps wind blowing into the barrel from the front, and the "vacuum" at the back, amongst other things.

I just knew you would like it. You must see that double rifle in .700 Nitro Express they reviewed in that article in MAN/Magnum - what a beauty!

Marius Ferreira <>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Tuesday, September 15, 1998 at 02:42:12 (EDT) 

Yull: It would help if you told us whether you're planning to hunt bunnies, bears, or bison. It would help if you said whether you're shooting from a bench, carrying in the woods, on a horse, on open fields, climbing in the mountains, or shooting from the door of a Blackhawk. Do you like recoil? Do you like history and the smell of sulphur? Do you hunt in rain and snow? Do you like to wear hearing protection when you hunt? Do the critters shoot back? What is your stature? Do you prefer wood or plastic? How much money do you want to spend? All of those things make a difference. There are nearly as many correct answers as there are shooters and models of rifles. So get a Sendero in 7 Rem Mag :-)

Lou Boyd <>
Patagonia, Arizona USAUõÿÿÿ - Tuesday, September 15, 1998 at 02:46:24 (EDT) 

Some time ago a post listed Galati International as a spot to buy the Tasco ss10x42 with mil-dots. It listed a 1-800 number that I can not reach from Canada. Does anyone have their regular number with area code or an alternate source for mail order.
Rick M <>
Ottawa, Ontario Canada - Tuesday, September 15, 1998 at 09:27:11 (EDT) 
Jim Liles (on .300 WM):
My favorite was 180 gr Sierra Matchking with 68.0 gr of IMR4350 behind it and velocity of 2925 fps. Now that I started moly coating the bullets, I switched to 220 gr Sierra Matchking and load of 64.0-66.0 gr of same powder. I'm still working up a load but 64.0 gr of 4350 seems most promising. Didn't clock it yet, don't know how fast it is going.
oh USA - Tuesday, September 15, 1998 at 09:30:00 (EDT) 
New Schmidt & Bender Scope !

I just toured the S&B plant, verrrrry nice! Small, but very well organzed with a exellent customer service and turn around for defective or upgrade scopes in 2 Weeks.

The new variable 3-12x50 PM II has 34mm rings. Beacause!
It has a elevation adjustment of 130 Centimeters (51 Inches)at 100 Meters in 1 cm clicks in one revolution.
The only way to fit this into the scope was to make it a 34 mm tube. All the optical parts belong to their exellent 30 mm series. Eye relief is listed with min. 85 mm (3.4 ") and should be enough for most tactical uses.
The turrets are about 1 1/4" diamteter and knurled for good friction. The clicks are audible but muffled like a BMW door. The reticle in this one is a Bryant version, but Premiers Mil Dots are also available as they make them for S&B. The reticle is in the first optical focal plane and does change with magnification, but it will never change zero when changing the power. Also you can range at all settings.
Overall this make a good impression, I cant wait to get my special EAW canted mount with 34 mm Rings to fit this to the .300 Win Mag. 2185 Voere Semi Auto.
I´ll have this until after the shot show and will try to get one to Russ for T&E.

I´ll be at the SOF show next weekand and look forward to having a beer with any of you that can make it there.

Puuh, that was a long one


Torsten <>
Germany - Tuesday, September 15, 1998 at 11:51:32 (EDT) 

Fer the person looking fer a "good long range huntin piece" Yes ya could go wif a Remington 700 Sendero in 7MAG or ya could save a bit o cash and get a Savage in whatever caliber ya feel like ya need. It wil do the same (if not a little better) than that there Remington.

Confederate <confederate123>
possum town, Mississippi USA - Tuesday, September 15, 1998 at 13:08:54 (EDT) 

Looking for suggestions. I currently hunt whitetails with a 700pss in .308 firing Hornady 168 bthp match. I have had good luck with this round, clean kills, 300 to 500 yards. I am looking for a suitable round for close range 30 to 150yards. Should I stay with the bthp or try something different. I usually hunt along power and gas lines, but have found a nice spot, close cover in the Adirondacks. Thanks for the input.
Ray <>
USA - Tuesday, September 15, 1998 at 13:38:16 (EDT) 
Marius: Would this plane happen to be flying in a vacuum?
Paul J. Headlee <>
Ogden, KS USA - Tuesday, September 15, 1998 at 14:19:35 (EDT) 
Ray: What kind of performance are you getting out of HPBT on game? I have never had the guts to try them on anything but paper.

As to your short range hunting rifle I would recomend something quick on target and light weight. I am currently building a "Cooper Scout" for situations like what you mentioned.
5-cent <>
Lewiston, ID USA - Tuesday, September 15, 1998 at 14:46:51 (EDT) 

I just recieved the info that Walt from Technicarbon Dynamics has sent me and it looks promising. Their stock looks good, no funny gimmicks and comes at a very reasonable price. It can be had for Remington and Savage actions and both can be had with a 10 round detatchable magazine! Prices are: $149.95 for Savage stock in primer (you have to finish it yourself) and $179.95 for a finished stock. Prices for the Remington are $189.95 and $219.95 respectively. Detatcheable mag. stocks are $359.95 complete for the Rem. No quote on the Savage yet. Recoil pad is $12.95 and cheek-piece sets you back $29.95. Stocks come as drop-in replcement units. Weight=3.75 lbs. and LOP is 13.5" with the recoil pad, 1/4" increments available.
Interested? Call Walt at 352-860-1737 and he'll send you the info along with two colour photographs. Just watch the phone-bill; Walt likes to chat.....

From nearly flooded Holland, I wish you a good day!
Stefan <>
Somewhere, The Netherlands - Tuesday, September 15, 1998 at 16:57:45 (EDT) 

On the TechniCarbon stocks - YES Walt DOES LOVE TO TALK!! The FIRST phone call with him over a mnoth ago was well over 20 minutes! Hang on to your hats - and what ever else is appropriate gang - ESPECIALLY you SAVAGE owners, Walt is sending me one of his stocks for review and evaluation!! I hope to recieve it in the near future and as soon as I can get it mounted and do some shooting I'll write the review and post it, along with pictures, to In Review! I'll keep everyone up-dated! In fact I need to go call him!


Sarge <>
Area 51, NM USA - Tuesday, September 15, 1998 at 20:02:05 (EDT) 

Ray & 5-cent: .30 caliber 168grain HPBT match bullets ARE NOT DESIGNED FOR HUNTING four legged game! This bullet is not designed for expansion and in some states is not a legal hunting round. I don't doubt that you have killed deer with this round, but the potential for a wounded animal is immense, especially considering your claimed ranges. You may be an exceptional shot; however, sooner or later the odds will catch up with you and you'll lose a wounded deer because of arrogance or stupidity. 165 grain Sierra Match Kings or Nosler ballistic tips can provide essentially the same accuracy as the 168grain HPBT match bullets at normal hunting ranges. The animals we hunt deserve our best efforts and a fast clean kill. Please consider increasing the odds in your favor by using the proper bullets for your intended game at reasonable ranges.

Sarge: Wow! I've never seen you out in the open. No stealthy sneak out of or into your hide. That new stock must have you really excited.
Mike O'Brien <>
Evansville, WY USA - Tuesday, September 15, 1998 at 21:42:55 (EDT) 

RE: .300 Win. Mag. loads -
My 1,000 yard match load is 74 gr. of H4831SC pushing a 190
gr. Sierra HPBT match ball at approx. 2943 fps. WARNING!!!
This is listed as a MAXIMUM LOAD by Hodgdon Powder Co.
The Sierra 50th Anniversary Manual lists a maximum load for the 190 ball over a grain and a half heavier than Hodgdon's, and in my rifle,it was definitely too much! Approach all max loads very carefully!

My ridge hunting load is a 180 grain spitzer boattail ball, as I cannot locate a 190 grain HUNTING ball. (Maybe Hornady?) DO NOT hunt with match balls!!
Hodgdon lists 76 grains of H4831SC as their maximum loading in the 180, and it shoots well in my rifle at approximately 3030 fps. Neither load shows any signs of high pressures, even when shooting in 85 to 90 degree weather. These loads apply only to my rifle!! Work your loads up carefully, as every rifle is different, and chamber pressures do ugly and violent things to rifles, hands, eyes, etc. when they become too intense!! Hodgdon has a basic reloading chart on the net. Seek and ye shall find. Again, if you use Sierra's 50th anniversary manual as your source for load data, be VERY, VERY careful! Sorry for the long post.
USA - Tuesday, September 15, 1998 at 22:51:17 (EDT) 

Well, from reading the chastisements, I'd say that pretty well sums it up on hunting with match bullets. "Ahem."

Along these lines, I'm going to buy some of the Winchester/Nosler Combined Technology 168-grain hunting ballistic tips and give them a try.

To anyone tempted to use a Match King on game, listen -- the Game King bullet, while not "as" accurate as the Match King, is still VERY accurate. The load I have for my hunting .308s, while not sub-MOA out of my Savage like my target load, is MOA nevertheless. For the bullet performance I get, "MOA" is good enough for me.

To Torsten: Good news on the Schmidt & Bender scope. If you can get me one to look at, thanks. So, now that you've been to the factory, WHY do their scopes cost so damn much? Where's all the money going? "Inquiring poor folks want to know."
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, September 16, 1998 at 01:52:51 (EDT) 

Russ: to compare, Schmidt & Bender is not that expensive, their new 34 mm scope retails for 2.767,-- DM incl.16% VAT.
To compare, the new long range Leupold M3 with a Mil dot reticle retails for 3.098,-- incl.16% VAT.
But after seing how they manufacture and assemble the scopes and knowing that our scilled labor is more expensive and that the only other thing that comes close to S&B would be Leupold I think they are in the ballpark.

Sarge >>> no more sneaking ?!!!! I´m disapointed.
Germany - Wednesday, September 16, 1998 at 02:21:55 (EDT) 

I think your reference to "165 grain Sierra Match Kings" for hunting should have been 165 grain Sierra GAME Kings - or am I mistaken?

the plane flying in a vacuum? Huh?

hope your sniper's gun-boat has been kept in shape. Are you swimming too?


your cover been blown? Must have been that EVIL MAN GOOCH :-)

Marius <>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Wednesday, September 16, 1998 at 03:02:48 (EDT) 

To Torsten: You have to understand, the most expensive optics I've bought to date are my two Burris mil-dot scopes, the 8-32x and the 6-24x, each well over $500 at DEALER cost, and both of them had me studying the North Hollywood bank robbery tapes, looking for the mistakes that THOSE robbers made. (I had my eye on a local savings & loan.) Still, somehow, I survived that particular month (I bought them both within 30 days of each other). Thank God for MREs.

I can't recall seeing any of my distributors carrying Schmidt & Bender scopes. Has anyone seen any dealer costs on their items and, if so, where?

Potpourri: I confirmed that Powell River Laboratories IS the owner of Rock 5R barrels (well, the production process, that is). I knew Rock sold out to someone in Tennessee, I knew that PRL is in Tennessee -- and, adding two and two, I had a strong hunch that it was probably PRL that bought Rock out. (It's interesting to note that PRL's website has been dead for months. I called them about it, a few months or so ago, and they didn't seem to care if they EVER got another site up and running. Hmmmm.) I also found out that someone I know has some .30-caliber PRL tungsten-core bullets; this individual has no need for them and is giving them to me. Nice things happen to nice guys -- but occasionally even to me, too.
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, September 16, 1998 at 04:02:13 (EDT) 

I just found this on rec.guns:

"Blount, Inc., which recently purchased Redfield, will not be marketing scopes under the Redfield name. They will be making Redfield mounts, and these should be available in October. -- Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer"

Maybe "5-cent," who works for Blount, could enlighten us with the "inside scoop."
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Wednesday, September 16, 1998 at 04:45:41 (EDT) 

Schmidt & Bender vs. Leupold.

In Norway the prices are app. the same. S&B sniperscopes are cheaper than Leupolds.

I've used a S&B 6X42 sniperscope for many years. I'm very pleased with it.

Both factories has the same exellent customerservice. Until my discharge I used the same rig for military service and hunting. I still use it for hunting. My rig is a 7.62NATO Tikka M55 with two scopes in QD-mounts, the S&B 6X42 and a Zeiss C10X36. In military service I used standard 147gr Raufoss NATO ammo. I duplicated the ballistics in my huntinground and use 150gr Sierra SBT. Both rounds have the same POI at all practical ranges. It's not the best ballistic combination but I have thousands of practiceshots.

The coming weekend I'm going for a 3 day hunt on raindeer at 400m above the treeline in a national park. Weatherforcast is arctic winds from north, sunshine, rain, snow and freezing temperatures at night. Optics take a lot of abuse in these conditions. Relieable QD-mounts and zeroed backupscope are essential for a successful hunt/mission. S&B claims that 30-40% of their customerservice comes from Norway...
Oslo, Norway - Wednesday, September 16, 1998 at 05:02:54 (EDT) 

Schmidt & Bender Inc.
P.O. Box 134
438 Willow Brook Rd.
Meriden NH 03770
Tel. 603-469 3565
Fax. 603-469 3471

Dietrich Apel runs the operation, and is the Importer and Distributor for S&B in the US. Talked to him last night, they will send info and leaflets to me in Las Vegas.

If any of our regulars here at the Roster need one then contact me and I´ll see what I can get out of the factory.

Tor F: have a great hunt, I wish I could come along some day.(Hint,hint). Have you receved the H&K barrel and stock info by snailmail ?

Time to feed my Bernese Mountain Nauga pup!

I´ll hook up with Stefan in flooded Holland on Saturday to shoot at 500M on a Military range. I´ll probably be wearing neoprene and look like an attack Sub or Elephant seal.

Airplane project !
so if the bullet out the back leaves at the same speed the plane travels foreward it should have 0 speed above ground. But what about when it (bullet) looses velocity ? would that give it a positive speed above ground again ????
And what about the Thin Wind ?? He ??

Germany - Wednesday, September 16, 1998 at 06:09:57 (EDT) 

About hunting with Match King Bullets, don't do it. About fifteen years ago, fresh out of Sniper School, with lots of ammo, I took LC Match with 168 Sierra in it on a hunt. I shoot a buck at about 300 yards, through the lungs. He barely flenched and what followed was a three hour chase until I could get a head shot and put him down. The first round was just where I had tried to place it and had worked with 165SP's many times before. I have never hunted with the 168 BTHP round again. About the shooting out of a plane this whole talk reminds me of something a friend always says "Did you walk to school or bring your lunch"?
Mike Miller <DMMDNLN@aol>
Calif USA - Wednesday, September 16, 1998 at 11:31:35 (EDT) 
Rick,Gooch,Scott,Bain ETL,
What is the best mil-dot system to go with, the dots or the football shape?? And what style does Premier Ret. put in there's?? Is one or the other easier to break down into the tenths on the smaller targets??
I've only looked at the B&L and they use the dots and it didnt seem to bad. I'am going to convert my 3.5x10 LR to the mil-dot so I was wondering what the prefered style is.

I guess I should have asked you too!! I got your up date on the Mil-dot Master, thank you so much! I'am sending shawn you address so he can order one from you, he's going to convert over to the mils also. You have a great product and you certainly take care of your customers and thats the best advertisment in the world for you.

I agree with you on the 155s I've had good luck with them also. I was really surprised when they out shot my Berger 175 VLDs!! The Begers shot around 2.25 at 400yds and I was quite pleased until I shot the 155s into around 1.75!! I haven't had a chance to duplicate this so I cant say its the way to go. Its hard to find a day around here when the wind doesn't blow and I can shoot groups at long range. I hate to claim they will do that all the time with out backing it up with a couple more groups because we all get those "LUCKY" groups once in a while(HA) I'll keep you posted if I get back out again.
Pat <>
USA - Wednesday, September 16, 1998 at 12:43:00 (EDT) 

I am new to this site, I have read the recent posts and I'm very impressed. I have a Savage 110 Tac in .308, topped with a Redfield 4-12x (BDC), and a PH bipod copy (Chinese? from Navy Arms). Yes, yes, its one of THOSE.... I have built what I have been able to afford.
I am looking for helpful info on the Savages, especially aftermarket stocks, etc, if anyone has any suggestions/info I would appreciate it (besides "get a Remington"). I try to learn from others success and failure. Thanks.
Grenadier <>
USA - Wednesday, September 16, 1998 at 12:46:11 (EDT) 
To Russ: As much as I know how you dislike a certain manufacturer whose name starts with R and ends with r, I believe you do a disservice to anyone who wishes to possibly use a No.1 as the basis for an accurate long range rifle. While I have seen some that do not shoot well, I have seen plenty that do. Are they as accurate as a first rate bolt gun? Not normally, but under certain conditions they can approach that level of accuracy. Special gunsmithing techniques are required, along with a good barrel, but there ARE gunsmiths that have the required expertise and they produce excellent performing rifles.

Aesthetically, there are few rifles that are in the same league, especially if custom wood is involved.

I do not believe there is ANY non-custom rifle action that is more capable of handling virtually any sporting cartridge.

All of this at a price that is affordable to most shooters.

A few questions though (since you are such an advocate of the Savage rifle). If that is such a good basis for the long range requirement, why is it that NONE are used by the Palma shooters, or NRA high power champions, or the bench rest fraternity? Why is it that the Army and Marine Corp have not seen the light? Why is it that Savage hasn't won any sniper weapon procurements? Must be that butt ugly barrel nut.

To quote our friend Torsten, "Ende".

Fred Fischer <>
People's Rep. of, MD USA - Wednesday, September 16, 1998 at 13:23:19 (EDT) 

Fred: I don't have much experience with the No. 1 other than handling a tropical version in a gun store and reading what the gunwriter whores have to say about them. Still, it seems like a nice hunting gun. It's just not designed to be used as a tactical piece. I plan to get a couple of them some day. The Savage is affordable and accurate enough right out of the box. I have one in .308 and when I bought it, I had to put it on layaway at Walmart. I could have paid a couple hundred more for a Winchester or Remington but they all three launch bullets more or less the same way. Barrel life is not significantly different from one brand to the next and most shooters can ill afford to spend extra money on something that is, to begin with, a luxury item to most families trying to put groceries on the table. The top level competitors have different criteria for selecting the brands, models,liesessories and modifications that they do than say, your average long range shooting enthusiast. I'd sure like to have a few switch-barrel Sauer M202s, Rem 700s, etc. but I only make about $35,000 a year. My wife is a full-time college student and we have a house & 2 cars to pay for and maintain. That's all without even mentioning the upkeep on our kid. I'll bet I'm not the only guy in this boat. It sounds like you've got good taste in guns, though. 8-)
Paul J. Headlee <>
Ogden, KS USA - Wednesday, September 16, 1998 at 14:48:49 (EDT) 
Ray: Match King and similar bullets are not constructed to withstand striking much other than paper. The core is pure lead (which is OK) but it's not locked to the jacket by a mechanical means (like an internal annular step) or by chemical means (bonded). They may fragment badly upon encountering much resistance and cannot be counted upon to penetrate sufficiently at rifle velocities. Of course, there are always exceptions to the rule. The smart and responsible thing to do would be to fork over the dough for bullets designed for hunting the particular animal you are after. Work up a load (using inexpensive bullets) which you would expect to give a similar trajectory and deflection as the premium bullets and then see if a few of the premium bullets shoot into the same group as the work-up bullets. A box of good hunting bullets used like this should last many years.
Paul J. Headlee <>
Ogden, KS USA - Wednesday, September 16, 1998 at 15:11:33 (EDT) 
When I owned my SSG it had Steyr QD rings. It always returned to perfect zero but I wasn't sure how it would hold zero if it was bumped, it didn't seem very rugged.
Last Saturday at the range I talked with a guy who had Leupold QD rings and bases on a Winchester. He said that as far as he could tell it always returned perfectly to zero.
Does any one out there have any experience with the Leupold QD rings and bases? Do they always return to zero and are they rugged?
Thanks !!!
USA - Wednesday, September 16, 1998 at 15:28:34 (EDT) 
Marius: Oops! You're right, what I meant to say was 165 grain Game Kings. So much for my proof reading. Thanks!
Mike O'Brien <>
Evansville, WY USA - Wednesday, September 16, 1998 at 15:59:26 (EDT) 
Sarge stealthily comes out of this hide and fires:

Nope guys I was just in a bit of a hurry and had to get out QUICK! Sometimes you have to deedee even when you don't want to! As for the TechniCarbon stock, I tried to call Walt the other evening to check out the progress on the evaluation stock and he wasn't in. Once I catch him I'll up-date everyone.

His mission accomplished Sarge disappears into the mist. (or did my glasses just fog up???)


Sarge <>
Area 51, NM USA - Wednesday, September 16, 1998 at 17:46:16 (EDT) 

Thanks to all those who took the time to help me with my queries on my 303... I really appreciated the input...
Andy <>
Canada - Wednesday, September 16, 1998 at 18:02:42 (EDT) 
Thanks to all for the responses re my 300 Win Mag. pet load query. After reading through most of the postings here and my e-mail, I've got several to try

Jim Liles <>
PDX, Or. USA - Wednesday, September 16, 1998 at 18:35:54 (EDT) 

Whoops, pardon me. Hey, did sniper X74 ever come back? I found one of those tellyskoptik sights at a DRMO sale. Infrared, 5x zoom, x-ray, and conventional optics. I won't forgo my affinity for Simmons so I could probably be talked into selling it.
Can I jump in on the Remington/Winchester,etc. vs Savage debate? I came across the mack-daddy, be-all end-all argument stopping reason this past weekend. They are shooting fools. Mine was in love with them 69 gr. Sierra HPBT's. That there God scope really topped it well.
All yawl have a good day.
Jim Liles <>
PDX, Or. USA - Wednesday, September 16, 1998 at 18:59:21 (EDT) 
Wow, everyone is talking about who likes what and what the other guy has is crap and get either Remiongton or a Winchester. Well gentlemen,it may not hold true with this fraternity, but almost any off the shelf rifle (including Ruger) will be able to outshoot its shooter. SOOOOO - buy what YOU like and who gives a rosy red rat's ass what other people think. If you can afford only a Savage, well, hell, buddy, have at it!! I have shot just about every major manufacturer's rifle (Not bragging, just fact) and all have at least something impressive about them, or they just won't sell. I do like the Ruger M77 Mauser action and I believe with a lilttle work, it can be on par with the Remington or Winchester actions.

And lets not forget who showed us what a good barrel is to a modern rifle and that was a Pope barrel and they were put on the early Savages.

So, don't be too influenced by what others may tell you and recommend. Remember, opinions are like a**holes, everybody has one.


Al OStapowicz <>
Livin"and Lovin', by the Grace of God in the Stately state of , Ohio USA - Wednesday, September 16, 1998 at 21:43:13 (EDT) 

Pat - Most of the Premier Reticules are the football 1/4 mil dots. These dots break down nicely to 1/8 mil. The round dots come in 1/4 moa and 3/4 moa. If the dot barely breaks the surface of the cross hair then it is 1/4 moa. Some European manufacturers messed with 1/3 moa dots back in the 80s but I have only seen a couple of examples. The round 3/4 moa dot breaks down very nicely to .10 mils because the 3/4 dot is .20 mils (rounded). With practice you can break the mil scale down very neatly by NOT imagining mil dots but measuring. I.E., bottom of one mil dot to top of next mil dot is 1.2 mils, top of one to bottom of the next is .8 mils, cross hair to bottom of any mil dot is mils plus .9 mils. The same works sith the mid area of .5. By going to the top of a mil dot equals .4 mils while the bottom equals .6 mils. Anyway, I think you get the picture. Check Email and beg the right programs if you don't have them. I'm sending you a package that may help.

On the 155 Palmas, one of our instructors is a Palma Canidate and he now loves the 155s. He has been shooting long range and cross course for a while and is a High Master.

Al - Thank you man. This rifle bashing was getting rather thick. As was previously stated, most shooters can't outshoot an out of the box gun anyway. Guys if you are just starting out, buy what you can afford and forget the wazoo crap. Shoot what you can afford and add as you can afford. I wish I had every expensive gun guys have bought only to find out they couldn't shoot to its ability. They then get frustrated, quite, and there sets a great rifle, forever to gather dust.

Have fun guys and hold hard.

Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Wednesday, September 16, 1998 at 22:50:06 (EDT) 

A few questions for all you Snipers. Are most of you Military or PD Scum like me? For PD guys what ranges do you think we should practice at? I have always worked from 25 through 600 yards so I would be able to handle any potential that my .308 Win could take care of. I know what the brass says about shooting past 200 yards but if I practice at 100 yards, 200 seems along way off but if I practice at 600 yards, 200 seems like a stone throw away and 100 is plain spitting distance. About equipment I have been doing this for 15 years and I have gotten to the point that I get a new PSS every year and shoot it weekly. I have been doing this for last eight years and have only had one bad gun(Rem didn't plug the barrel before finishing the metal) and it was made right by Remington post haste. Any thoughts or comments let me know. I enjoy the Remington Savage debate that before I came on here I had no idea it existed. Savage are they still in business? I have never seen one at a sniper or HiPower Match. Just Kidding no hate mail please. Mike M.
Calif USA - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 00:39:27 (EDT) 
Mike in Calif, I guess I am a little of with some PD's around here and did my 10 yrs active a LONG time ago (72-83). I have seen excellant results from training PD shooters to practice long range then come back to the "standard" close range , almost like a confidence builder for some. However, POLICY rears its ugly head and says , "NO LONG SHOTS"...WTF??!! I don't make the policy so I play the game.
The argument about rifles is getting old......I could only afford the "R" word rifle a few years use it just for hunting and use my NEW Rem 700 VL for match / long range stuff, still if I had known about how well Savage shot ( yep, I listened to the "knowledgeable" shooters).....well might have saved a few bucks. All in all, getting a Rem 700 for under $500 didn't hurt !!
Out Here
Will <willadams>
Deep South, USA - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 01:58:13 (EDT) 
Can anyone help with the exact dimensions of the scoring rings; both head and body; of the Ground Hog target used in the Hickory Egg and Ground Hog shoot. If poss a rough size of the Ground Hog target and relative scores will help too. I have read many inspiring articles in PS and TS on this shoot but none that I can remember mentioned the target size and sadly I'm not likely to get that far to shoot in the Match.

I have been intrigued at the various comments re hunting etc. Down here our main hunting is at various species of Deer in country from deep thick WET bush to Alpine rock faces so the debate as to the ultimate all around hunting rifle rages on far and wide.

I'm currently shooting a 308(Palma) and a 22/250 Ackley Imp (1in9 with 80gn Molyd Bergers) in Open Class and have recently scored some VVN140 which is very rare down here as is the reloading info. Has anyone had experience with this powder in the Ackley or 308 with the 155 Sierra. Many thanks.
Dave JONES <>
Wellington, New Zealand - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 03:07:39 (EDT) 

To Fred: You said I was doing a disservice to Ruger No. 1 rifles? Yes... and your point is?

On the "Why doesn't so-and-so use Savage rifles?" question... well, see, you're using the "logic" that someone else on the Council uses, which is to presume that if so-and-so (fill in "big name" or "cool" branch of government) doesn't use it, then it's a POS. This same "logic" also presumes that if it doesn't cost "X" dollars, and isn't built by Mr. Big Name Gunsmith, then it's a POS. This same "logic" does not allow for the fact that there are more "no name" gunsmiths making PRECISION rifles and who do so for a third or a half of what Mr. Big Name Gunsmith charges. I've already argued this "logic" discussion with a certain person offline, I won't make it public. It does keep things lively in our E-mail to each other, though, but we usually end up buying each other a cyber-beer. :-)

On testimonials, Fred, my degree is in psychology. As such, you learn early on in your coursework that you do NOT count "testimonials" as "fact." They are, however, effective -- about 90% or more of television commercials are based on someone telling you how WONDERFUL something is because of their own experience. Such people are usually "cool" (highly placed, physically attractive, or appealing in some other manner), but their comments are all based on subjectivity, not on empirical evidence and "fact." To sum it up, I like how Nick Nolte's boss in 48 Hours summed up Nick's vocal expression of what a great "partner" Eddie Murphy was. Yelling at Nick, he said:

"Just 'cause YOU say it with conviction, it don't mean S**T to ME!!!"

And a word on contracting: I've been involved in government contract work and I've seen some of the good, and some of the asinine, ways that contract awards are determined. I'll let that stand by itself, except to say that I have many good reasons why I don't always put a lot of faith in something that earned a government contract.

As for Ruger No. 1s, I said they're a fine hunting rifle. I stand by my original comments, and won't rehash them here. Apparently, I'm not the only one who feels they SUCK as long-range precision rifles -- "the gunwriter whores" feel the same way (nice term, Paul), so I suppose I'm in good company.

To Grenadier: I've got the same bipod, two of them in fact, for a couple of my Savages. There's nothing wrong with your scope, either, and I think you've got a pretty sound rig. If you're dead set on an aftermarket stock, McMillan can outfit you with their A-2 Tactical -- but you may want to wait until Sarge finishes his review of the stock he's getting from the company in Florida. It sounds like it might be a very worthwhile product.

On stocks: I'm a third of my way into my much-awaited stock review. I'm finishing up the Choate/Plaster stock, then I'll look at a few others. I hope to have it finished by the end of this week. Photos will be included.

To Pat: If you can replicate your performance with the 155 Palmas, let me know. And what twist do you have in your bore? I've heard that the 155s occasionally shoot very well in 1:10" twists, though they're not supposed to.

To Al: I agree with you, and I've said the same thing. Almost any gun (even a Ruger, except for "most" of those damn No. 1s) can be made to shoot. And I have NOTHING against Remington, except their price, and the same goes for Winchester. Buy what you can afford. If it isn't quite right, get a gunsmith to tune it. No big deal. I'm a poor guy, so I shoot Savages, but from what I've seen, I don't have much reason to spend the extra money. Maybe if I just HAD "extra money" I'd think differently about the matter... but probably not. I did like Rick said, I bought what I could afford, when I could afford it, and I added to it when I could. If I had the choice between a "great" rifle and a "good" rifle with access to a GOOD gunsmith, I'd take the latter. And I also agree, most rifles can outshoot most shooters, which is certainly true in my case.

To Will: I'm just as sick of the "what rifle is better" discussion too. A good 'smith and a good shooter can make almost any rifle do wonders. I've just always had to make do with what I could get my hands on. I was going to buy a Winchester or a Remington until my gunsmith, knowing how strapped I was, suggested a Savage. He said they were very affordable and could shoot. He's kind of an E. F. Hutton type of guy, so I usually listen to him when he says something, especially about guns. I bought my 110FP Tactical, ran some Federal match ammo through it, and I was convinced. I've never regretted buying that rifle. It's all a matter of what you like and what you can afford.

To Torsten, Stefan, and my other European friends: My January trip to Germany has been moved to August. Adjust fire accordingly.
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 04:09:19 (EDT) 

I'm wondering how many left-handed snipers, tactical riflemen, ect.. use right-handed bolt-actions. Yes, I did see the sniper in S.P.R. use a right handed rifle, but is that the proper way for left handed shooters to operate the bolt while on duty? Does anyone know if Remington offers a lefty in the 700 police special?
D. West <>
OrlandPark, IL USA - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 04:25:33 (EDT) 
When you do your review of stocks, can you include a mention about ease of use for left handed shooters?
Sandy <>
KY USA - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 08:22:00 (EDT) 

You said it all. Most rifles, out of the box, can hold better than the man behind the trigger. It may be that because of the level of experience and expertise on this site that this has become such a controversy. We will usually swear by what we do well with. Truth is, if we HAD to do well with something else, we probably could.


Your comments about shooting long range as a PD sniper are well taken as are the comments of a respondent from down South. If you can shoot far, you can sure as hell shoot close. Most PD snipers (in my view) are not confidence inspiring in their performance. I'll take my military spec ops sniper buddies any day. PD shooters do not do well, including the Federal Bureau of Incompetence, because they do not practice under the same degree of stress or distance. You're doing the right thing. I left the LEO world because of the idiots that make it through the ranks to positions of policy decision making. Good luck, you need it!
James R. Jarrett <>
Todoland, Kansas USA - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 09:47:52 (EDT) 

I think your right on the mark with your practice. When I was a Law Enforcement sniper that is the way I practiced and your right about shooting out to 600 and then going to 2 or 300 yards, its a "Chip Shot" for you and thats a big confidence builder and when it comes time to pull the trigger you damn sure need the confidence!! I was working with the State Patrol sniper last night and we were doing just what you were talking about and that was about his exact quote when we were done. I also think that the area you work will also dictate the range you need to practice at. Out here, in some areas, you can see to rattle snakes humping for a mile away and not a lot of cover to watch from.

My 308 has the 1-12 twist. I dont know now if I will be able to duplicate the test it seems the rifle found a new home in Iowa!! Shawn thought he could probably bring out the rifles "Full potential" better than his blind, shakey old man(HA)

Thanks for the info on the mil-dots!!! Rick I dont have that new of a system but will try to get it down loaded to one. Thanks again!!!
Pat <>
USA - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 10:16:19 (EDT) 

I've been reading The Roster for quite some time and have enjoyed it immensely. I'm curious as to the almost total lack
of the word "Winchester" in your comments and exchanges. As a hunter and local gunsmith? down here on the edge of the Missouri Ozarks, Winchester and Remington are about equal in populatity, with a few of those "S" word guns around as well. Could someone please explain this to me?

Doc Holloway
Retired airplane driver and shade tree gunsmith.
R. L. "Doc" Holloway <>
Bland, MO USA - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 10:39:34 (EDT) 

Pat: I sent the 260 Rem info from Sierra to you via fax yesterday at approx. 2:30PM EDT. Also I emailed you about same. Just want to be sure you got the info. It will be 3 pages + cover sheet. Thanks again for the 6mm input.

Sarge: Just tried to call Walt at Technicarbon, but got an answer machine. I am curious about these stocks..

Bain: Got the brochure from Storm Mtn. a couple of days ago. Mr. Ryan emailed he would sent '99 schedule when it was complete. A well done brochure. Makes me want to go that much more. Am thinking about the 2 day basic longrange marksmanship course first. Also, I'm trying to convince my friend, Frank, to go. The brochure mentioned 2 man teams.

Well, alright: Rifle match no. 2 rapidly approches. This Sun. at Ft. Benning. Excitement is mounting.. Have done the appropriate things as best as I know: Ammo ready...check; Rifle ready...check; Ancillary equipment ready...check; Appropriate number of chickens and cats sacrificed to the sun god...check; One hour per night hanging in gravity boots hyperventilating cordite and laboratory grade moly... you betcha, Bob..

Shooting is magnificent. The imagery that so easily, almost automatically manifests itself when contemplating shooting is so clean, so primal, so spiritual, so... hey, wait a damn second there, Leroy. Don't you know you're just preachin' to the choir?
Jeff A. <>
Toying with the idea of a 3rd cup of coffee in Smyrna, Ga. USA - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 10:50:15 (EDT) 

I like what you have done to the site guys.
Tony <none>
wolfville, Nova Scotia CANADA - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 11:26:09 (EDT) 
Russ, about 155 Palmas, they work great in my M1A with a 1x10" twist and in my 1x13" bolt gun. I haven't done any experiments but if they leave a boltgun 28-30" barrel at 3050 and are still supersonic at 1000yards, what do they leave my M1A at and when do they go subsonic. My Birthday is coming up and my girlfriend says she'll buy me that Chronograph I have been wanting. If no one else has a answer I will in about one month. To all the other HiPower Shooters try the Palma bullets at least for the 200 and 300 yard parts of the course. Recoils alot less and my scores for thouse stages are 98-100percent since I changed from 168's. Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@aol>
Calif USA - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 12:36:18 (EDT) 
Russ: As an employee of a defense contractor, an ex-Air Force enlisted man and a tax-payer, I am very well acquainted with the military procurement process. I have noted in the past that logic often plays no part in this process; the best often does not win the procurement, and in some cases is not even accorded "also ran" status.

My opinions of firearms are based on experience with them. Testimonials are usually nothing more than another opinion, and I treat them as such unless it comes from a source I respect and consider knowledgeable.

I will admit to possessing "more than one" No.1, and one of those shot 1/2 MOA @ 200 yds after being removed from the box, cleaned, having a 1.5 X 5 Leupold installed and zeroed, and then fired for record. A .416 Rigby Tropical Rifle model. One does not normally expect this type of accuracy from an African cartridge. A friends .223 Remington chambered Varmint model, with exactly the same level of tinkering, shot 1/2 MOA with loads developed by Depity Dave and I for an AR-15. Accuracy that hardly merits the term SUCKS. With NO trips to the gunsmith.

I wish you and your Savages well; I bear no ill will toward them. I prefer to invest my time and money on projects that I feel merit the investment and offer some hope of a return should I need to release it at a later date.

The title of this site suggests the job should be done with one shot, and I maintain that a properly prepared No.1 is thoroughly capable of that type of accuracy. As capable as another of my personal favorites, the 1874 Sharps.

We will have to agree to disagree on this subject as I am not likely to change my mind until I'm proven wrong, and neither are you.

Once again, with a nod to Torsten, "Ende"
Fred Fischer <>
People's Rep. of, MD USA - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 13:11:06 (EDT) 

To Sandy: I already made mention of the left-handed matter... which sounds like another political joke I don't want to get into.

To Fred: The problems I have knowledge of, personal and otherwise, have to do with how the rifle is designed, with the damn hangar. Everyone has a good day even with a bad gun, but I'm sure the ones of which you speak are perhaps better than those in the mass population. I'm not the only one who's run across problems with the No. 1 rifle, and if you have as many as you said, then you must know about the problems as well. Truly, I am surprised at the performance of your .416 Rigby at 200 yards -- out of curiosity, was that a three-shot or a five-shot group... and how many ½ MOA groups did you fire to label it "1/2 MOA?" Regardless, between my personal experience with them and those of the various "gun whores," there must be a problem somewhere. I mentioned "testimonials" in response to your question about why certain folks don't use Savages. Really, though, and I'm only saying this because it's the way I am, but... I don't CARE what "star" or agency or gunsmith is using a Savage. "I'M" using one -- well, FIVE, actually. I can afford them, they shoot as well as anything else, if not better, and that's all I care about. And I wasn't trouncing your No. 1s, Fred... just everyone else's. :-)

To "Doc" Holloway: Like I said, about the only thing Remingtons have going for them is you can spin them on a lathe and true them up. That said, they're just an action, just like all the other actions are just actions. I have no problem with Winchesters, and obviously Carlos Hathcock didn't either (yes, I know, it was his issue weapon). My gunsmith could have built his sniper rifle on anything he wanted (he's better funded than I am), but he chose a Winchester action. Some of the guys over on the rec.guns newsgroup like them for competing in highpower matches (do a search on "bartbob" and "winchester" in rec.guns, and you'll see what I mean -- check the archives when you do your search). Some people like the positive feed system and others hate it, but the actions are strong and well built.

To all: Stock review update. I finished the Choate and have four more stocks to go. I'm tired, I'm going to bed. I hate third shift.
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 14:37:51 (EDT) 


Dont hold back, tell us what you really think about LE executive types! By the way, sounds like you must have met my sheriff.


I have known Fred for a number of years now and we share a simple philosophy If it wont shoot, get rid of it! Both of us have single shot rifles, mine are Browning 1885s, one of the reasons we enjoy them is because hunting with one makes a statement about confidence and selectivity. We would never own one let alone several if they were inaccurate. Bolt guns have there place, but when we are talking about One Shot, One Kill I dont see how single shot rifles can be summarily dismissed.

Stay Safe!

Depity Dave <>
Forced to reply from normally quiet, West Virginia USA - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 14:54:16 (EDT) 

Welcome back "Flat lander" Hows things down in the land of OZ?? I'am going to have to agree with you on the Law Enforcement sniper, as much as it pains me to say so. There are some though who are very good at what they do in spite of the handicaps they work under, as you well know.I think one of the biggest problems with the average Law Enforcemant
sniper is they don't always put the right man in the right position because of what ever reason and that person doesn't take the time to practice and do the job right because he doesn't live and breath rifle shooting. Then when you get the right person in the position they don't afford him the time or the equiptment to become proficient at his job, just my opinion for what its worth.

This is a no win argument on which is best, if we all liked the same thing we would all be married to the same woman!! There are great #1s and great SAVAGES, and there are bad Remingtons and bad Winchesters, so to hell with it and to each his own!!! Now lets argue about something else for a while, God you have to love this bunch!! You said we should have a Sniper Country get togeather sometime, couldn't you just imagine it!!!(HA)
Pat <>
USA - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 15:44:18 (EDT) 

Deputy Dave: I've met Fred, as you know, and I like him greatly. And I'm not "summarily dismissing single-shot rifles" as an entity -- I'm dismissing Ruger No. 1s.
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 15:45:35 (EDT) 
No info on the Leupold QD rings and bases ????
USA - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 16:04:39 (EDT) 
Russ: As I know you are familiar with Dark Continent cartridges, the number of groups one can withstand firing (especially from a bench) determines the amount of experimentation one is willing to participate in. It was in the process of creating 10 empties from some Federal Safari 410 gr Woodleigh soft point factory ammo (a real waste of good ammo), that I determined nine was a good number for empties, ie: my shoulder determined it. That ammo shot decently, about 1.5 MOA.

I then re-loaded with 300 gr Barnes X bullets in two groups of five and four, differentiated by seating depth, but equal powder charges. After 5 rounds were fired with about 1.5" @ 200 yds, I was quite surprised and pleased. Sore shoulder and all, I fired the remaining four into 1.1"; needless to say I felt no further need to hunt for a better load. Now could I do this again on a regular basis? Not sure, because the thought of attempting to repeat an equal number of one session firings is distinctly unappealing. Depity Dave is no help, he mumbled something about merely looking at the cartridges is painfull enough. Seriously, I believe it is possible to repeat it, just need to sit down and try. If this number is felt to be insufficent then so be it.
Fred Fischer <>
People's Rep. of, MD USA - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 16:10:56 (EDT) 

Pat & Dave:

Great to hear/see you guys are up and taking nourishment. The problems identified about selection process' for duty slotted snipers are well advised. A good number of the special enforcement duty slots (i.e. swat, sniper, selected enforcement, etc.) too often are determined on a "good ol' boy basis. Unless you personally have the "privilege" of actually knowing these guys so assigned, they treat you like scum and have attitudes that, for me, are problematic. Phoenix PD is a classic example as are some of the federal agencies I worked for. I want competence, courage, and comraderie in the guys I work with along with a very liberal dose of a sense of humor and a lack of self-importance. Just my opinion guys, but I'm old school when the "oath of office" still meant something.
James R. Jarrett <>
Oz, USA - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 16:36:32 (EDT) 

I have a 3X9 Redfield Golden Five Star that is probably parallax-adjusted at 100 yds. At 200 yards, and at all power settings, the parallax is quite apparent. It looks like the crosshairs are moving about 2" (at 9X), and is much more pronounced on the vertical crosshair.

Lacking an external adjustment for it, is there any way to "dope" parallax?
Greg <>
Palmyra, PA USA - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 19:58:10 (EDT) 

Thanks for the encouragement. I was beginning to think I had built my own "sniping Chauchaut", after reading some of the posts ;). I will be attempting some of the mods on the bipod, are they really made out of that crappy a metal? Mine weighs a ton, assumed (yeah, I know....) it was steel. Silly me. Also, are there any special considerations for installing the post for the bipod in a plastic/fiberglass/silly putty type stock? I havent worked with those types of stocks before. Painting-do's and dont's :any suggestions? Yes, I am a pest,sorry.
Grenadier <>
USA - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 19:58:27 (EDT) 
Kodiak, if you are asking about the newer "QRW" style, I just got a set. The rings are rather wide and clunky looking, but the quality seems alright. If you want, E me and I will give you a full review of zero hold and my overall impression after I get the rifle back tomorrow.

I'm with Russell, Ruger sucks rancid goat urine. If you want something big and odd, how about a Hyem express bolt action in .600 nitro? or a Browning high wall, or a get the idea, anything but a Ruger.

Pat, how dare you? there are no bad Winchesters...the push feed models were just a "savington" conspiracy illegally marketed under the Winchester name.

Rich <>
WA USA - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 20:17:49 (EDT) 

Question for someone good with physics:
I read that bullet's BC changes when the bullet is moly coated. I assume this would have different effect on trajectory and wind deflection than the old BC. Now, how can this "new" BC be calculated? If anyhow? I found this to be a problem when I ran my trajectory tables on the computer. Obviously if the BC changes, then the calculations would be wrong because I'm putting in the wrong number. Anybody has any input, comment on this?
oh USA - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 20:47:58 (EDT) 

I have had and used the Leupold QR rings on two rifles. The reeturn to zero was excilent. I no longeer have them because: At the Storm Mountain, Hathcock shoot I had a radical shift in point of impact and missed the head shot. After checking everything to see if I could find the problem I decided to go with a one piece mount and rings from Chandler at Iron Brigade Armory. No problrms sence.


Good to see you up and about also!

Stay Safe!

Depity Dave <>
Watching the Clinton Follies on the telly from the democratic onclave of, West Virginia USA - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 21:18:20 (EDT) 

Does anyone out there use one of these new-fangled GPS's for scouting/patrolling? (I know this isn't strictly long-range shooting with precision subject matter, but then again...). Anyway, I would just like to hear about preferences, experiences, and problems with these new-fangled gadgets. Not only do I have more than a little experience with map & compass, but I've done a little SAR since retiring from the USMC, too. Thanks in advance.
Dennis <>
Merced, Ca USA - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 22:50:15 (EDT) 
Sarge peers (to tired to sneak or anything else)from his hide and fires:

OK, OK I have to admit it, I'm also one of those - SAVAGE owners, and like my exalted Editor-in-Chief, have 5 of them. Well,OK only 4 one of them is my son's Lefty .243. Anyway I have to go along with some of the final statements and we are ALL going to have to just agree to disagree. Like Russ, I've gotten what I could afford at the time and built it up as I could. My Savages shoot better than I can and as long as that occurs I have no desire what so ever to change!
Now on to other OLD business - and HOPEFULLY a SERIOUS change of subject. Russ and I both asked late last week or earlier this week; if you where going to "build" your own log/data/record book what would you want (PLEASE see my post further up this page for specifics) it to have/be/do? I've seen NO responses?? Why?? Isn't keeping track of the performance of our weapon (REGARDLESS of who makes it), rounds fired, distances to target, weather, etc.,etc.,etc. important to what we do?? I think it is! So lets have some discussion on this - What DO we need to keep track of and HOW would you do it!

Expecting incoming Sarge diasappears and waits!

Sarge <>
Area 51, NM USA - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 22:53:58 (EDT) 

Greg: If your Redfield scope was focused for any distance between 100 to 400 yards it would not have two inches of parallax at 200 yards. I assume you mean that as you move your eye across the exit pupil of the scope, the reticle appears to move two inches on the 200 yard target.

The only way the parallax can be different for the vertical and horizontal wire is if they aren't in the same plane which says the reticle is damaged. It's almost impossible that it could be a problem with the lenses or an alignment problem and it can't be a problem in the optics after the reticle. You could still use it by carefully centering your eye on the scope, but if it's damaged it probably won't hold zero under recoil and you won't have confidence in it.

Unfortuantely it appears that the scope division of Redfield has gone bankrupt, so I don't know how you can get it fixed. The Leupold 3-9x40 tactical is a nice replacement for $300. They'll fix it for free if it breaks, which it probably won't.

Lou Boyd <>
Patagonia, Arizona USA - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 23:18:22 (EDT) 

Greg - You're lucky if you are only getting a couple of inches movement. When you settle on the weapon move your head side to side and make sure you are in the middle of the movement. If the movement is more on one side of the target than the other, then find middle and place that point on the target. I used that trick for years with the fixed focus scopes of yester years. I still have the habit of rocking my head on the scope slightly to check parallax.

Harry - You need two Chronos. Set one at your standard muzzel distance and the other at 100 yards. Input the different muzzel velocities into your ballistic program. Your program should give you the BC for that 100 yards. You can repeat at 200 and 300. This will show the error factor due to lose of velocity. Use the average of the BC your program spits out. You'll get a better picture. You may be surprised with the results though.

Depity Dave - Sorry man, One shot one Kill denotes accuracy, not mission! I'll be damned if I would be caught on a mission with a single shot. Custer done proved that doesn't work! Follow on shots must always be considered!

Have fun guys. And for heavens sake, can't we just get along?

Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 23:30:31 (EDT) 

Rick, Gooch, ????

Any date on the posting of the rangefinder review info? I have a hunting webpage with rangefinder reviews and was wondering if I can quote your review? With all due credits of course.

Regarding Matchkings and hunting. Don't. Had the displeasure of bloodtracking a 500 lb. bear after some oxygenwaster doublelunged him with a .308. Needless to say, the pucker factor was peaking when we found him 2 hours later watching his backtrail for some payback. You don't have to run fast from a bear, just faster than your partner. A .300 winmag finished the mess.

Appreciate all the hard work you guys do and the info. Thanks

For a little humor, click here

Jesse <>
Land of fruits and nuts, Ca. USA - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 23:32:41 (EDT) 

Torsten: HELP! I am considering acquiring an SSG PII. I have spoken to NECG and have been told that EAW does not make a set of rings that are tapered. I see you mentioned a "canted" base they made on one of your other rifles. I was wondering if you were aware of anything that might be available in Europe that NECG might not be aware of. Do you perhaps have a number for EAW so I could call them direct? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Almost forgot, NECG said that I could use an .020" thicker "block" under the rear ring, but it wouldn't be tapered. This struck me as a particularly bad idea. Any input guys?
Andrew <>
Austin, TX USA - Thursday, September 17, 1998 at 23:59:56 (EDT) 

I'm back from Canada again, eh!

The 2nd Annual Candadian Forces International Sniper Concentration was a big success. It was a battle focused, infantry sniper evaluation from hell. 2 days of shooting and 3 days of field problems. Guess who won?

"From the Halls of Montezuma, to the shores of Tripoli, baby!" Two teams from USMC STA platoons got 1st and 2nd. 2nd Recon got 7th. Made an old jarhead proud!

I went up and helped my old Canadian bud Warrant Officer Treger man the OP on the stalk. Looked like a couple of old men sitting on a park bench watching the birds. Poured rain on us all day. Don't know who was more misserable, us or the snipers.

Ran into another former Quantico instructor, SSgt "Fast Eddy" Dristoll now of 2nd Recon Bn. and met the NCOIC of the 2nd MarDiv School, GySgt Miller and the rest of the 2nd MarDiv contingent. Great bunch of Marines. The Corps is still the Corps.

More knowledge and wisdom from Mount Gooch later when I get my clock back off of New Brunswick time.

Good day!
gooch <>
Sherwood, AR USA - Friday, September 18, 1998 at 00:05:23 (EDT) 

To D. West: Remington came out in '98 with a 700 VS in .308, .223 and I think 270 in left handed. Very similiar to the PSS. Good looking rifle, mine just arrived a week ago. No, I haven't shot it yet, its at my smith getting a few things tuned. I bought the Burris Black Diamond scope in 3 x 12, so I should have an opinion on that scope in a few weeks.

To James in TODO land: keep the faith, we're all thinking about you here.
Bob Hodge <>
AZ USA - Friday, September 18, 1998 at 00:06:57 (EDT) 

Harry; While I believe that a moly coated bullet may have a slightly different BC than an uncoated one, there are enough arguments of why it would change and in which direction that calculating the difference isn't reasonable. Do the changes come from the slick surface? From the extra diameter? From different bullet deformation? From the surface dimpling during the coating process? As Robert McCoy has shown in Precision Shooting articles, measuring the BC of a bullet accurately is very difficult. Some of the big name bullet manufacturers have had trouble doing it. As a minumum it requires multiple accurate chronographs or a millimeter doppler radar to determine the drag versus distance and velocity. Then drag has to be worked back into a BC. In either case accurate weather information is also required. It's not really practical for an individual shooter.

Even measuring the point of impact change and the velocity change going from coated to uncoated bullets doesn't do the job because there are several things besides BC which can change. I just use the same BC, correct for any velocity difference, and rezero with the moly bullets. If you know your muzzle velocity and the weather conditions and if you know the drop as measured by your scope at several ranges, you can "trim" the BC value in your computer to get the calculations to fit your results. It may not give the "true" BC, but for the purpose of calculating drops it will probably give better results. You can also trim the muzzle velocity number if it gives a better fit. You may also find that using a different function table, such as G7 instead of G1 will give better fits. With that many variables, getting a "best" a fit will be a fair amount of work.

Lou Boyd <>
Patagonia, Arizona - Friday, September 18, 1998 at 00:24:53 (EDT) 

To Fred: Yes, I "do" know, extended firing of those Dark Continent rounds gets... um... "fatiguing." Under such circumstances and your description of same, I'll take it that your rifle performs as you related earlier. For God's sake, Fred, don't bust your shoulder on MY account... save that for an elephant... or a Nauga.

I keep wanting to try some of the Barnes offerings in my .416 Remington Magnum -- until I look at the price. At that point I always look into my wallet, shake my head, mutter something not very nice, and grab my usual 400-grain Hornady RNs. (sigh)

To Grenadier: You're not a pest. If you have the same PH-type bipods I own, they're heavy enough. I bought the M-85 model from Model 1 (they are listed in Shotgun News). Actually, I bought two, and I'm in the market for a third. The Chinese have better metallurgical processes than what they're given credit for. Their PolyTech (rifle) receivers got a bad reputation for softness, but to my knowledge their Norinco .45s do pretty well. For a bipod, though, I don't think you'll have any problems, if you've got the same model I have. As for the installation you mentioned, Scott Powers can probably address that issue. You might want to look at his Versa-Pod review.

To Dennis: You can't snipe if you can't navigate, and discussion of GPS devices is certainly well within the topic of sniper warfare. I'd love to get one but don't know enough about them and, as always with me, price is a consideration.

To Jesse: Mr. Bain and Jim Craig were doing the rangefinder review. I suspect it will be submitted to a print publication as well, but if Mr. Bain submits it to this website for posting you can, with credit, link to the material from your site. Thank you for asking first, and not just doing it (like some others have).

To Gooch: Thanks for the report, and... welcome back!

To Bob Hodge: Got yourself a Black Diamond, eh? Did you find one at a good price? Definitely, let us know how yours performs.
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, September 18, 1998 at 01:32:25 (EDT) 

Oh, by the way, I added a section on gun safes to our links page.
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, September 18, 1998 at 01:49:27 (EDT) 
"As the smoke clears from the gates of Walhalla .....

Ähhh, sorry, got carried away!


If they can not help you, then you just have to get a smith that will mill you a slanted Picatinney rail to fit the SSG receiver. I would never ever raise only one ring.
If you need more detail, or eaw cant comunicate with you E me and I´ll help.

....... one hears the sound of 88 mm brass being ejected."
Torsten <>
Germany - Friday, September 18, 1998 at 02:46:52 (EDT) 


Not only is our own Scott Powers a legend in his own mind... eh, that is, "time"... he's also "da man."  If you missed his latest piece in Tactical Shooter because you haven't yet subscribed, you can still read his article at the TS website.

Congratulations again, Scott.  As Editor-in-Chief, I'm going to let you just KEEP the Sniper Country company car.  Enjoy!

Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, September 18, 1998 at 03:55:41 (EDT) 


what's wrong with our Dark Continent cartridges? Or more correctly, cartridges developed for shooting our little animals here? You think the .416 Rigby is tough to shoot? Have you tried a .600 or .700 Nitro Express yet?  Neither have I :-)
I must admit, that is exceptional accuracy for that big a calibre, as Russ will have to admit as well. Russ, what's Bwana do again?

so have you figured yet what to do with all your spare time in that land of nothingness?

on your BC. Off the Compendium of Terminology here on Sniper Country:
"A mathematical factor representing the ratio of the sectional density of a bullet to its coefficient of form. Simply put, BC expresses a bullets length ( relative to diameter ) and aerodynamic shape, thus indicating its ability to overcome air resistance in flight."
Looking at this, simply put, your moly will NOT change your BC, since you are not changing the physical dimensions of your bullet. However, the whole idea of the moly is to make your bullet "smoother", for lack of a better word in my vocabulary now. So it will reduce your wind resistance slightly, but it will affect it in such a way that your BC will change dramatically, say from .45 to .55. Rather you might have a change from .45 to .46 - or am I now totally off the mark? Russ?

Enough now, time to get back to work.

Marius <>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Friday, September 18, 1998 at 04:45:54 (EDT) 

To answer your question, Marius, Bwana will put five rounds into a half-inch at 100 yards from a cold clean barrel, if I do my part. That's with 80.1 grains of IMR 4064, moly-coated 400-grain Hornady RNs, and match-prepped Remington brass. Primers are Winchester Large Rifle Magnums. I'm aware, as are you, that accuracy like this is somewhat uncommon among the bigbores.
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, September 18, 1998 at 06:43:03 (EDT) 
Welcome back bud!! Sounds like Canada was "Fun". I sent you a post last week asking when you would be "pulling the pin"?? Shawn joined the Nebraska guard unit with Maj. Brewer's crew and he may be going to sniper school in Feb. or March. He was wondering if you would still be there or if not had you talked Dolan into taking over for you?? (Sounds like that "Semper Fi" runs a little deep(HA)

Deputy Dave,
What kind of a price does Chandler get for his one piece rings and bases?? and does he have them in 30mm also??
Pat <>
USA - Friday, September 18, 1998 at 09:37:09 (EDT) 

Thanks to all on the input about the BC changes. I think I'll stick with the old one and just test the ammo at the range and see how much is it off. I like doing that better anyway than sitting and doing math.
oh USA - Friday, September 18, 1998 at 09:58:10 (EDT) 
Dennis: The Garmin GPSIII looks like the best bet now, I use one of their older models (much more finicky) but plan to upgrade when budget permits. A GPS is sometimes a very handy device, and a confidence booster when you're out in the Nevada desert 25 miles from the nearest road I can tell you. Their reliability and durability isn't great, and they need batteries... And they can be slow sometimes, especially if you're not someplace where you're receiving well. So really I think they are a good supplement to traditional map/compass/etc. navigation but not a substitute. There are other uses my SAR team uses them for which definitely don't apply to sniper use, you can email me offline for details.

As to the "Chandler rings", I can post the price (and some other missing details) later today if no one else has gotten to it yet. They don't make their own rings, they use someone else's, I forget whose but I'll look that up too. There was a side by side comparison in one of the later DFA books of these rings and the Leupold Mk4 rings, and while they were a similar design you could see machining marks all over the Leupold rings the Chandler-favored ones looked perfect. Yes they have them in 30mm and of course they ain't cheap. DepDave, did you have IBA mount the scope/base/etc. for you?

Dave <>
San Jose, CA USA - Friday, September 18, 1998 at 13:26:47 (EDT) 

Dennis: Check out for their GPS products. They have a couple that are pocket size, 12 channel receivers, with excellent performance. One, the GPS III model is also a moving map type with all Interstates, US numbered highways, most state numbered highways, and many secondary roads as well. It even leaves a "breadcrumb" trail to show where you've been! Price for this model is currently approx. $370, but this will drop I'm sure. Most marine electronics shops carry them.

Russ, Marius: I was VERY surprised at this level of accuracy, but have seen a couple of .458 Win Mags that also shot 1 MOA or so. Unfortunately, testing for any length of time is, as Russ stated "fatiguing", and can be worse. After fiddling with my rifle, and two others belonging to Depity Dave's brother Harold, I managed to sufficiently re-aggravate an old separated shoulder injury that the thought of firing anything other than a .22 long rifle was out of the question. It took approx. six months to heal to where it was comfortable again. These rifles can indeed hurt you, and need to be respected. After much experience with them (zeroing rifles for customers), Dakota Arms bought a machine rest. It was simply too punishing for the fellow that did the shooting.

Depity Dave probably is the only one of us with sense, he declined to participate other than as a spotter. Not that he doesn't appreciate them, he maintains that he does. Jest don't need to fire em to appreciate em. He usually fires a round from each just so he can't be accused of being totally non-participative.

All of this serves to satisfy the "gee, I wish I could hunt Africa" in us. As to the practicality of these for any North American game; yes, far into "the more than enough" area. However, I doubt that the whitetail or mulie or bear probably cares, they are just as dead. The only major consideration in actually using one of these rifles is the complete penetration of the game animal (a safety concern) and possible lack of bullet expansion. Bullet selection is of the utmost importance, for in most states, a non-expanding bullet is illegal for hunting.
Fred Fischer <>
People's Rep. of, MD USA - Friday, September 18, 1998 at 13:33:01 (EDT) 

Kodiak, If you want my opinion:( it takes a big dog to weight 100 pounds) And that guy that hates the R word rifles has A thing for Millett rings.I on the other hand like STEEL and some of the best has the Leupold name on it starting with the the MK4s next in line are the QRWs they can do the job as good as any that I have come across.They work very well with the MK4 1piece base also.So if you want one of the best rings give these A try just remember don't tighten those TORX head screws down to much or you will crush the scope.

Depity Dave: I'm sorry to hear that you missed the head shot because your scope was off.It looked ok to me and Harold after Fred droped it in the basement but I guess we could have missed some thing.

Fred :You did tell Dave about droping his rifle in the basement diden't you...?

Enfield #4 Lovers : I have a new in the wraper .308 win heavy barrel made in Canada for the Palma matches.If any body is intrested send me an E-mail.
Si vis pacem para bellum... Sgt.Cox
Sgt. Cox
FT,HOME, GA. USA - Friday, September 18, 1998 at 16:58:47 (EDT) 

Sorry forgot my addrest. Sgt.Cox out...

Sgt.Cox <>
Athens, Ga. USA - Friday, September 18, 1998 at 17:14:15 (EDT) 

With the demise of Redfield, I am having a hard time finding a sun shade for my scope. Anyone know of an after-market company who could supply me with a sunshade for my Redfield LE-12 scope, please let me know. The Objective lens is 56MM. All that I have been able to find is up to 50MM.
Randy Stoddard <>
Ponca City, Okla USA - Friday, September 18, 1998 at 17:33:37 (EDT) 
Pat & Dave:

I had Chandler do an inspection and correction (as necessary) on my PSS 223 plus install and sight-in my Leupold 6.5 X 20 30mm Tactical. The cost was around $278.00 (as I recall, cant find my receipt just now, but keep in mind that as a law enforcement type I took advantage of any discount available). The enclosed target upon return measured .28 in. for three shots with my ammo. Work was performed in an expeditious fashion.

Sgt. Cox:

Fred told me he wouldnt have dropped it if he had known that you were throwing it at him while his back was turned. Harold is still not admitting to anything.

Always good to know what is going on when I'm not looking.

I do not know if it was the rings and bases that failed but after examination of everything I could think of and re-shooting that stage of the event I found a shift of about 3.5 in. to the right in the point of impact. There was no shift in elevation.


I don't disagree with you, BUT, you might be supprised just how fast a follow up shot can be had with practice and just because it holds only one dosn't mean I have only one with me. Also with a single shot I'm not limited to cartrages that fit in a magazine.

Stay Safe!

Depity Dave <>
Off for the weekend in magnificent, West Virginia USA - Friday, September 18, 1998 at 17:59:41 (EDT) 

Night Owl Night visiond devices
Are they any good, thinking about the binoc's
Mr. D. Pitt <>
langley, va USA - Friday, September 18, 1998 at 18:52:37 (EDT) 
I just got a new Remington PSS chambered in a .308. Its a good quality looking and feeling rifle but what a piece of shit when it came time to scrub and clean the bore!!!! Im no expert but after owning two Rugers,two Marlins,and lastly a BVSS Savage I've never seen a barrel so full of crap.... Come on Remington.It looks like they shot a couple boxs of rounds through it. I have yet to shoot it and hope I dont run into any more problems. I read a post a while back about a guy with the same situation, if you are out there or if anyone else has had such a trashed bore out of the box,drop me a note and let me know if you had any other problems along the same lines. Now wish me good luck!!!
Todd <>
Andover, NY USA - Friday, September 18, 1998 at 20:47:47 (EDT) 
To Fred: Thanks for the recommendation on the GPS III. Yes, I'd LOVE to hunt in Africa with my .416 Remington Magnum. (massive sigh) On the nonexpanding bullets, I know what you say is true -- but I can't figure out why Barnes has such a business, as do others, selling solids. I have hundreds of these "AP" 400-grain bronze solids that I'm just dying to try on an armored car... uh... elephant. Or a Nauga.
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Friday, September 18, 1998 at 21:27:21 (EDT) 
Randy, One other place that you might want to check out for your sun shade is the Midway reloading catalog. I don't have mine handy, but if you don't have one, I'll see if I can find one in there for you.
Hope this helps.

D. West < >
I hate , Chicago!!! USA - Friday, September 18, 1998 at 21:28:05 (EDT) 



Thanks for the info on Jim's and Mr. Bain's review. I am anxious as a nun in a cucumber patch to see it.

I've got a webpage with reviews, links and info on GPS if you need some more reading. Too bad we can't take these computers into the crapper to read. My GPS page is here.

Out here where I work the L.A. Co. Sheriff was testing a robot sniper weapon system last week. Anyone know anything about it? Caliber?

Back to my basement hydrogen fusion experiment.
Jesse <>
On top the babysitter in beautiful Socal, Ca. USA - Friday, September 18, 1998 at 22:55:07 (EDT) 

I do hunt Africa and use a single shot MUZZLELOADER. While the equipment is not of this century, the concepts are the same for any shooter. I personally choose the challenge of hunting with no rapid second shot. It raises the concentration and focus level immensly. Nevertheless, I know the limits and capabilities of the system and apply it to make my stalk/shoot decisions. A modern sniper would do the same. I consdider the type of target ( impala or elephant), the bullet terminal ballistics I( I. E. dead soft lead round ball) and its ability to affect the target, the probale range at which I must take the shot, the personal danger to myself and my tracker/PH etc., the environmental conditions and I make a decision on how and when to shoot. ( YES, round ball does kill an elephant quite effectively). I shoot a four bore forsyth on elephant with a 1500 gr ball over 400 gr 2f ( yes 2f ). The point I make is that the equipment is not King, the shooter is. As someone said earlier, You like what you do well with but if you are a true shooter, you will do well with anything you are presented with because you will use it to its best capabilites.
Jim Craig <>
The Terrritories, USA - Friday, September 18, 1998 at 23:44:34 (EDT) 
I'm baaaaaaaaack!!!!! Had fun, didn't get hurt, didn't hurt the teenaged bride, not enough time, ate a lot, saw a lot, etc, etc........

Russ: Glad to see you're still stirring the pot......

Torsten: Check e-mail and six......(and I thought I was ugly, sheeeeesssshhhh)....

Bain: Howdy

Going to bed,

Out here
Gramps <>
Vacation's over, USA - Saturday, September 19, 1998 at 00:02:10 (EDT) 

Just traded for my first bolt gun, a Winchester heavy barrel in .308, and I'm looking for a better scope for it. I was wondering if anyone has any expierence with the Simmons Aetec? I'm rather intrigued by the advertised 5" of eye relief and reasonable price. None of the gun shops here have one and I don't really want to order one sight unseen. I am most interested in the 6-20x44mm. If any one has any info or comments it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, Todd
endwrench <>
Victor , MT USA - Saturday, September 19, 1998 at 00:09:25 (EDT) 

I have a question on group size. I own a Sako TRG-21, and recently shot a few groups at 200 yards that measured between .30 to .5 inches. On the average I was shooting less than .20 moa. A freind, who was lucky enough to have puchased a Remington PSS which I had reworked and shortened the barrel, shot a few .10-.15 inch groups at a hundred yards during the same session. My question is why when reading articles on rifles like the Accuracy Int'l AW, and the Sako TRG-21 ect. The best groups usually shot are larger than .5 in at a hundred, and 1-1.5 in at 200. Is it because gun writers are poor shots, or am I just lucky? I know it not because of my skills.
Lance <>
Seattle, WA USA - Saturday, September 19, 1998 at 01:29:09 (EDT) 
I only get on here when I seem to be tired, I was thinking that the Versa-pod was the Chinese copy. After shaking out the cobwebs, I am much happier with my investment.Thanks.

For any Savage user,
Are there any tips/wisdom/advice on the factory 110FP stock. I need to scrape the barrel channel, as the bbl does not free float its entire length (bad?) What should I use, how should I NOT do it, etc. What works best for painting, ie: prep of the stock, type of paints, yadda yadda. Big flakes of paint leave a trail Hansel & Gretel could follow.( I want to do some mods to the factory stock, as it will be a while until I can replace it with a "better" one.)
Grenadier <>
USA - Saturday, September 19, 1998 at 01:33:06 (EDT) 

Fred: I understand that if you tie a piece of rubber surgical tubing to the front sling swivel of your riflestock and secure the other end to a table leg or a big rock, etc. the felt recoil will be diminished somewhat. I don't know what that would do to your groups and I've never fired anything bigger than a .45-70 so have never needed to try this. Just the same, before I'd injure my shoulder shooting a gun, I'd give it a try. Less pain equals more shooting.
Paul J. Headlee <>
Ogden, KS USA - Saturday, September 19, 1998 at 02:46:30 (EDT) 
I was just kind of chuckling to myself. Just so it's been said, the above recoil reducing trick is supposed to be used when firing from a bench, seated, using a fore end rest. I know Fred is smart enough to know this but that doesn't mean that anyone who reads this is.
Paul J. Headlee <>
Ogden, KS USA - Saturday, September 19, 1998 at 03:09:46 (EDT) 
To Grenadier: If you know how to use your browser's "search on this page" facility, go back through the last few archives and search for "channel." Basically, use a C' or D' cell battery and some 60- or even 30-grit sandpaper to open up the barrel channel. Other ideas, such as a wooden dowel were also suggested. On paint, don't scrimp on money -- get a good name-brand spraypaint in the color(s) you want. Clean the stock of all oil and crud, make sure it's dry, then paint it. Don't rush the paint job.

On reducing felt recoil: I use the P.A.S.T. Magnum Plus Recoil Shield. It lets me shoot the heavy stuff in summer months while only wearing a light shirt. You can wear it over or under your clothing as you desire. Fred, if you're dislocating your shoulder when you shoot the big stuff, I'd sure recommend getting one.
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Saturday, September 19, 1998 at 04:05:39 (EDT) 

I'm looking for info on how to contact H.S. Precision Stocks ... Does anyone know if they have a web site ... I can't seem to find one ... Also, Does anyone know how to contact Autugua ???
Sam Cushway III <>
Michigan City, IN USA - Saturday, September 19, 1998 at 04:25:38 (EDT) 
Sam, Hear is the info. your looking for.
H.S. Precision, Inc
1301 Turbine Dr.
Rapid City, SD. 57701
Phone# 605-341-3006
Fax# 605-342-8964
D. West <>
Wishing I was, back in the boonies USA - Saturday, September 19, 1998 at 04:52:25 (EDT) 
Autauga Arms (I think that's what your looking for.)

Autauga Arms Inc.
740 E. Main
Pratt Plaza Mall
Suite 13
Prattville, AL. 36067

Phone# 800-262-9563
Fax# 334-361-2961

D. West
USA - Saturday, September 19, 1998 at 05:08:33 (EDT) 

D. West --

Thanks alot for the quick and concise info ... Exactly what I was looking for ... Thanks again ...
Sam Cushway III <>
Michigan City, IN USA - Saturday, September 19, 1998 at 05:29:34 (EDT) 

To D. West and Sam Cushway III: Less than 45 minutes for a turnaround on information! Now THAT'S service! This Duty Roster is great!
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Saturday, September 19, 1998 at 06:00:12 (EDT) 
Paul @ Russ:

The recoil system I prefer to use on heavily charged big bore rifles is the one Fred discussed, Let Someone Else Sight It In!!!

Stay Safe!

Depity Dave <>
somewhere in Beautiful, West Virginia USA - Saturday, September 19, 1998 at 12:07:31 (EDT) 

To Depity Dave & Sgt. Cox:
Thanks for your input on the Leupold rings.

To Lance:
I noticed too that those ultra expensive sniper rifles don't seem to give the accuracy that you would expect, considering their price. I also noticed something strange in my shooting. When I had a Steyr SSG the accuracy was good. Later I bought a Rem PSS which cost about 1/3 the price of the SSG, the accuracy was quite a bit better than the SSG. Recently I bought a Savage 110FP which was a lot cheaper but more accurate than the Rem PSS.
It sounds strange but with these three rifles, accuracy seems to be inversely proportional to the price.
USA - Saturday, September 19, 1998 at 13:17:33 (EDT) 

Rangefinder Review: Jim and I are working on it. We are looking for a publisher. The first one said "no," because we were honest in our assessments.

Which rifle is best: The question is overly broad and incapable of answering here. I would not, and will never, own a Savage. I say this based upon my research on the matter and talks with current and former duty-slotted snipers. Notwithstanding, the Savage may be right for you, depending upon a number of factors. Bottom line is that once you start making modifications to a Savage (stock, cryo, barrel, etc.) you lose most of the advantages to buying the gun in the first place.

Grouping sizes: Lance, you've posted an interesting question, one I've thought about alot. The short answer is that not all measurements are the same and all groupings are not the same. Many have posted to this site bragging of their ".15" to ".25" MOA groupings, usually from out-of-the-box Savages, no less. We have no idea how these phenoms of the shooting world have measured their groups, nor do we know how many rounds they fired. Three is the minimum. Five is the preferred number. The Remington action-based AT1 M24s that Rod Ryan of SMTC and I have -- built by Andy Webber -- will shoot sub-.35 MOA five-shot groups day in and day out, rain or shine, hot or cold, first shot or 250th shot, in a word "consistently." I can't say that about any of the other rifles whose amazing performances are touted here.

Gooch and Torsten: SOF or SOL? If SOF, what's our TRP going to be?

Bain out

Oh, one more thing: A "special" hello to Uncle Nunzio's favorite nephew, the D-Man, Teams Dallas and LeMay, Dave Lick, Irv, Cory, "Basso Profundo", Fly-Boy and the Mad Scientist, Steve the pharmacist (bring more Tylenol next time) and the other shooters at SMTC these last two weeks. I'd shoot, drink, try and talk the local girls out of their undergarments, etc., anytime, anywhere with you guys. See you at the Sniper Sustainment courses next year! Drinks at Lefty's and dinner at the Candledyck? Sweeeeeeet!!!
Mr. Bain <>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Saturday, September 19, 1998 at 13:57:00 (EDT) 

I work for a local police dept. and am looking for a range of more than 100 yds. approx. 1 hour from my location. Anyone who has been to Ohio please advise.
Steve Remner <>
Youngstown, ohio USA - Saturday, September 19, 1998 at 14:16:08 (EDT) 
on your '"AP" 400-grain bronze solids', and your comment on why these guys are making such a business selling solids, or rather monolithic/mono-metal bullets. Actually they are made for maximum penetration on dangerous game - but of course you knew that.
Taking a frontal brain shot on an elephant the bullet has to penetrate in the order of three feet of bone, cartilage-type material in order to reach the target. Taking a buffalo from the front means you have to shoot through the massive chest muscles in order to reach the boiler room. If you have a large wounded animal going away, and need to take a raking shot through the body to reach the vitals, you once again need deep penetration.
These are the shots that you need bullets that will keep together for. You don't need something that will deform and fish-tail in the animal. I have seen photographs of bullets taken from elephant that can be loaded again - no damage whatsoever. Of course, having the best bullet available won't help a thing if you don't place it in the proper place. It is not that other bullets won't work, its just that these are better - after all they shot elephant with muskets and muzzle loaders before the current cartridges became available.
Now what the average American will want to do with bullets like that is beyond my knowledge.

Marius <>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Saturday, September 19, 1998 at 14:46:24 (EDT) 

I am just wondering what is the difference between the Remington 700 and the Remington M700? thanks
Mike Coursey <>
MO USA - Saturday, September 19, 1998 at 15:53:52 (EDT) 
Mr. Bain,
Long time on hear!! I totally agree with your comments on .3 groups at 200yards. That is around one eight inch at 100yds. I've shot thousands of rounds down range and like everyone else, everyonce in a while we get that "One hole" group we all like to brag about, but what counts is what that rifle does on an average of about 25-5shot groups. If they do that on an average of that, then my hats off not only to the rifle but to one hell of a fine shooter too!! My Hart barreled 308 will shoot consistant .3s at 100yds with its pet load all day long and .5s with most everything else and I'am thrilled with that!! The T-shirts are on order hope to get them in a week or two along with a hat and mug, will let you know. Keep your powder dry!!
Pat <>
USA - Saturday, September 19, 1998 at 16:32:19 (EDT) 

Good to hear from you. Our agency should be getting some caps, etc., soon. Will reciprocate when we do.


Mr. Bain <>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Saturday, September 19, 1998 at 17:03:33 (EDT) 

Hey guys,
I am 10-8 again. My comp went bust and I just went out and got another one. I will still send some firearms training info along. Miss me dad (Russ)?
Nathan Hendrickson <>
Muskogee, Okla USA - Saturday, September 19, 1998 at 17:52:24 (EDT) 
Best Rifle, Part II: I've been meaning to address this issue at greater length for some time. Remington, Ruger, Savage, Winchester all make good rifles. I've seen good shooting at various schools and events will of them sporting various scopes, bases, and rings. What do you want? For me, I wanted both a shooter and something for my small collection as close to what the Army uses as possible. For you, it might be the most you can afford, or maybe something that no one else has that provides you with the ballistics you want. Your criteria guide your selection. Be thoughtful and careful in choosing the criteria so that you save time and money.

Many of us don't like Ruger because of the owner's statements on gun control, a purely political decision. Winchester makes a good rifle but probably one doesn't hear much about their actions and rifles because of the heavy influence the Marines and Army have, given their choice of the Remington action. That leaves Savage and Remington.

What do you want? If you're going for an inexpensive, out-of-the-box system, without many future intended upgrades, Savage may be right for you. You can probably get into a complete rig (rifle, scope, rings, base)for as low as $750. Choosing a Savage probably also makes sense if you aren't planning on giving it any serious use in the field.

If you plan in the near future on seriously upgrading, Remington or Winchester are probably better. I say this for two reasons. First, there are many good upgrade parts (e.g., stocks, triggers, mounts and rings) for these rifles as compared with the Savage. This is especially true of rings and mounts for scopes. It's not impossible to upgrade a Savage, Russ has done so and Sarge is in the process of doing so, it's just not as easy.

Second, is what I call, for lack of a better phrase, dependability and trustworthiness. Few if any off-the-shelf guns can live up to the requirements of a full-time sniper rifle. (Don't believe me; look at the military's experiences with the Winchester Model 70s used in Vietnam.) True sniper rifles must take a lot of abuse while absolutely, positively delivering the shot consistently on target. Occasional weekend trips to the range, etc., do not constitute a sufficient test to compare stock rifles, if what you are looking for is the real thing. Since true sniper rifles today are custom-made, the first reason comes into play, and probably Remington or Winchester win out as the action to choose, though keep in mind that a good gunsmith can do wonders.

I note that much of the argument between Remington and Savage hasn't been about what's better. It's been about something else. The argument, at its extremes, has boors on one side and whiners on the other. The boors are those with more money than sense who slavishly follow the latest fad, buy the most expensive equipment, and have disdain for those who cannot or will not do the same. (Those of you who are students from a particular school will know what I mean. One of your fellow students, "Noodles," typifies this boorish behavior.) Having the coolest stuff does not make one a better shot or, for that matter, any good at being patient and stalking a target. We don't need the type of enthusiast who is a boor. He should have his a-- kicked and his stuff split up among the rest of us.

Then there are the whiners. Those who tout the extreme accuracy of their bargain-basement rifles and inexpensive optics and ridicule anyone with better stuff than they have. Though normally we eschew political or ideological commentary on this page, I believe it important to make an exception now: Such talk is the kind of classist bulls--- that we have had forced on us since FDR and the New Deal. It is liberalism's great weapon. Those who succumb to class warfare do not deserve to enjoy the benefits of this great and free society and are not welcome on this page.

Because someone has something you don't and it costs a lot of money, that is no reason by itself for you to criticize the other person. At SMTC this month, I saw a lot of guys shooting custom-built 700s from Mike Lau, the Chandlers, and Andy Webber. Some of these guys were through and through civilians, some LE, and some ex-SF and Army Ranger types. These successful, mostly white collar, shooters with their $3,000+ rifles could outthink, outstalk and outshoot any of you whiners with your $300 "wunder" rifles.

What do you want? We all want to shoot better. Neither the cost of the rifle, nor the accompanying equipment, will make one a better shooter, though these factors may make one more comfortable and better able to learn. Think long and hard about what you want out of your rifle before buying anything. Look at the pros and cons of the various rifles, price out the options that you want, look forward to where you want to be with long range shooting in a few years, then make the choice.

I made my decision, saved my money, sold several good long guns, and went with the M21 and M24. It was the right choice for me, and I wouldn't want more than two long guns of standard caliber in my collection. Russ made his decision and has five Savages, along with a number of other long guns, many in nonstandard calibers. Based upon his needs and wants, it was the right decision for him. I wouldn't have done it and can elucidate my reasons for not doing so, but I'm not Russ. Two final notes: Buying a particular rifle just because I prefer Remington, or Russ prefers Savage, is stupid. Being boorish or a whiner will not be tolerated on this page.

Mr. Bain <>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Saturday, September 19, 1998 at 17:58:01 (EDT) 

Been reading the Duty Roster and never felt the need to reply, but this is too good to stay out of. Got to meet the staff at the D&L shoot and enjoyed their company. Gentlemen all. Also met Gooch, was disappointed, he doesn't have two heads like you people lead me to believe. Have also been to the Super Sniper Shootout in Raton and Austria this year. If anyone wants comments or information e-mail me. Gooch, the Marines were at all of them.
About the "rail guns at D&L, to a old shooter,(like me)a rail gun is a type of weapon fired in benchrest matches, these rifles were single shot Remingtons in aluminum stocks. Although the one the Marine was shooting was a repeater using M14 mags. Two were in 7.62, one a 300WM, and the other was in 7mm STW. Shot the 7mm, it didn't move off the 8 inch plate at 500 yards.
If anyone is interested in military GPS equiptment let me know, we will be at SOF with them.
Have to go out back and check my hide now, I think Sarge has been useing it.
Semper Fidelis
Pat (#2?)

Pat Lakin <>
Whiterocks, Utah USA - Saturday, September 19, 1998 at 19:07:44 (EDT) 

Hey guys,

I'm feeling retrospective today. Turned in my keys to the office today and turned the sniper course over to my replacement. He is another former Marine sniper and I know the course will continue in the right direction. You guys that have retired from the military know the deal.

As I was packing the unavoidable 3 tons of books, papers and stuff that any normal human would throw away, I started thinking about the friends, assholes, enemies and the like that I have known over the years. I picked up an old laminated picture of a Korean war era Marine sniper and looked on the back and there were three signatures of instructors that I had worked with in Quantico and the motto "8541's rule". Took me back. There I was young, dumb and full of....uh.... well you know. Was is really 15 years ago? Damn.

While I was in Canada for the sniper concentration I was watching the youngsters from the 2nd Marine Division negotiating the program and I was thinking that these guys were the result of the program that me, Ghengis, Buzz, Spiffy, Shak, Pete, Snake, Gunny Hathcock, Capt Cuddy, Dick Culver and those before and after us had created and taught. I swear to God that I felt like a father watching his son's scoring touchdowns at a high school football game. WO Grant Treger and I were sitting on the OP for the stalk and I looked at him and myself and thought, "Yup, two old fuckers fixing to fade away."

Its times like this that I read the bickering about, Remington v Ruger v Winchester v Ross v Enfield v whatever the #^$% and I can't help but yell at the monitor "Its the MAN behind the gun that matters!!!". Its the heart of the Warrior, the honor and guts of the man that turns a boy into a sniper, a grunt, a machinegunner, a Ranger, a Green Beret, a Marine etc.

In Canada there were Parker Hales, an Accuracy International AW, Remington M24's, USMC M40A1's and civilian varients. Never once did I see one of those rifles drag themself out of a drag bag and put rounds on target. Never once did I see a rifle carry the team through 3 days and nights of rain, through near hypothermia into a hide position to wait silently for the moment to fire. They're called snipers.

Its the art of sniping that matters. Not everyone can do it, not everyone should do it. But those that wear the title are some of the best knuckle draggers in the world.

mrbullet - Tell the youngster I'll be around when he is down here.

gooch <>
Sherwood, AR USA - Saturday, September 19, 1998 at 20:36:49 (EDT) 


Very eloquent and touching post. I know how you feel and it does take time to put it all behind you. It never really goes away when there is such a degree of commitment. The discussions on the site lately have been a bit "noisy." But, it is a finite subject, to the dismay of some, and I guess there is a "need" to find something to talk about. Butter Bar Bain made some excellent observations, especially as how "Noodles" was one of my students. You ever out in New Mexico, Arizona or even Cans Ass, feel free to stop in, throw your gear on the floor and know you have a safe house.

Bravo 52 Actual
James R. Jarrett <>
Cans Ass, USA - Saturday, September 19, 1998 at 21:30:26 (EDT) 


Thanks for bringing it back into focus. It IS NOT just a game!

Stay Safe (all of you)!
Depity Dave <>
Reflecting on it all in Quiet, West Virginia USA - Saturday, September 19, 1998 at 22:34:56 (EDT) 

We presently returned from SMTC and have been home for only ten minutes and are already going through trigger finger withdraw. Sweeeeeet!!!!
Herig & Lemay <>
Candelwick, WV USA - Saturday, September 19, 1998 at 22:58:58 (EDT) 
Thanks to all for the info on GPS.
Keep your powder dry.
Semper-Fi., Gooch! Welcome to the FMCR!
dennis <>
merced, , ca USA - Saturday, September 19, 1998 at 23:15:08 (EDT) 
Sarge very quietly and with a great deal of respect looks from his hide:

Butter Bar - if that eloquent disertation had come from anyone but you I'd have questioned it's origin! However, as you and others have observed and stated - it's the man not the weapon. A rifle is a tool, nothing more, just as to me a surgical knife is a tool for the surgeon, the rifle is the snipers tool to remove the "cancer" the command authorities have determined needs removing. And just as there are people that cannot and should not be surgeons there are those that cannot and should not be snipers, either through the cold hand of reality or circumstance, thats just life!

Gooch - man I sympathise COMPLETELY! I've had the experience of turning over the keys for the last time! Knowing that whatever I did to influence young soldiers, in the past, is now up to another! Man if you dwell on it it can really get to you! All I can say is Hang In there! There IS ANOTHER life after Military Retirement(and just plain ETSing)!! I know, Jarrett knows and I dare say there are a few others here that also know! Keep hard! Shoot straight, but keep shooting!

Damn we're in a deep, thought provoking, mood today!

Sarge just retires to his hide to reflect!
Sarge <>
Area 51, NM USA - Saturday, September 19, 1998 at 23:16:32 (EDT) 

Steve Remner: In Ohio about 1/2 hour away from you is A&A Hunting on Fenstermaker Road in Parkman Ohio. It is directly off 422 and has a 100 yrd and 200 yrd range. Any ???. E-mail me at the address below. Maybe I'll see you out there.

To All: Remember, Guns don't kill people, Postal workers do!


Al Ostapowicz <>
My Li'l Bit of Green Heaven in Grandiose, Ohio USA - Sunday, September 20, 1998 at 00:02:57 (EDT) 

Herig and Lemay: You are some truly crazed individuals. I hope to see you all in Vegas. We'll do some drinking, fighting, and shooting the s---. And after the last two weeks, I know you all will be prepared. Whether the mission calls for semi-auto or bolt action weapons, GPS, night vision, smokes, or anchovies, you f---ers got it covered!

Bain Out

Mr. Bain <>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Sunday, September 20, 1998 at 00:04:08 (EDT)

Removed double post from Herig & Lemay and Pat#2; removed TRIPLE post from Mike Coursey; if you people who are posting multiple times "accidentally" (?) are using Internet Explorer, consider dumping it and using Netscape. I'm seeing a pattern develop, among the "Gee, Russ, I swear to GOD I didn't do it on purpose" crowd, and it seems like Internet Explorer is the culprit browser. However, I've used both, at work and at home, and haven't had any problems. I can't come into your homes and set up your browsers for you, but if you aren't sure about the settings you currently have, drop me a line privately and I'll work with you to perhaps straighten things out.

Yes, Nathan, I noticed your absence, and it's good to have you back.

On whining, "the best gun," and things related. I'm not sure if Mr. Bain was, directly or indirectly, referring to me, touting my "inexpensive" Savage, but I feel the need to comment. First, I've never claimed 1/4-inch groups, because I don't shoot at 100 yards very often, I prefer to shoot at 200 (the longest I normally have access to), and the best I've done is 1/2-inch at that distance.

Secondly, the Army knows no class system -- officially. Black, White, Indian... rich, poor... schooled or only marginally literate... you're all pukes from Day One. Eventually, with time, training, and luck, you evolve into higher forms of puke... but no puke is better than any other puke.

Further, I was raised in a lower-middle income family environment. I was raised not to look down on someone because they lacked money. Additionally, I do not look down on someone because they HAVE money. And for that matter, I don't look up to them because they have money, either. I never begrudged any man, Mr. Bain included, for having nice toys. I never called some guy an a**hole because he had a Corvette and I don't. And I also never laughed at anyone because of their inability to buy the meager goodies that I've managed to get over time. As for "whining" perse, my Dad didn't tolerate such -- transgressions usually resulted in being knocked from one side of the room to the other, end of discussion.

Perhaps I don't draw the "doctor and lawyer" crowd, but I get a few of them just the same. I get about 20 to 30 pieces of E-mail PER DAY (thankfully, it's gone down from the "60 to 80" it used to be, and I think the Roster has helped with that reduction, for which I'm grateful), largely "gun stuff" related. Most are simple "how do I do this or that?" type of questions, but a fair number are of the "what gun do I buy?" genre. I have to approach my answers based on what the guy wants versus what he wants to do versus what he can afford. A lot of guys are working in a factory (like I used to to) or perhaps on a section gang on a railroad (like I used to do) or any number of other types of jobs (like I used to do)... and they might have a kid or two and a wife. Should I "EVER" get some Ph.D. type of guy, making a cool $100,000 a year, ask me "Gee, Mr. Taylor, Sir, I want the very best rifle money can buy for long-range precision shooting -- what should I buy?"... well, I'll GLADLY recommend an AT1 M24, or a PSG1, or something from the Chandler brothers, or something else along those lines. However, that hasn't been the case. Unless you get into the "specialty stuff," most production rifles shoot on par with each other and unless you want "a name," you know my recommendation when money has been a factor (that is, when the guy didn't have much of it). Meanwhile, I'll continue to advise the rich and the poor with equal enthusiasm. I submit if people don't want answers, they don't ask questions.

Certainly, Gooch and others are right, "it's the man not the gun." I've said this myself. Any comments I had on Ruger No. 1s, as I'm sure Fred knows, even if he disagrees, are based on the history of the equipment -- not a slam of the entire Ruger line, nor of single-shot rifles. The Ruger company makes some fine, very strong, hardware -- again, on par with the products of their competitors. If you like the looks of something and have the money for it, buy it. If you like how it shoots, keep it... if not, return it, sell it or get it fixed.

On retiring, fading away, and departing: That's one thing I've never liked about the military -- saying goodbye. A lot of times, guys don't. They look down at the ground, escape to another room, or just get in their car and go. Tours of duty, with people you come to enjoy working with, never overlap completely. Someone has just arrived, someone will be leaving soon, and you come into an assignment in the middle of things. Someone's always coming and someone's always going. And as you get older, it seems there's always some kid hot on your heels who is after your job, your car, and maybe your wife. James put it very well, that it's "attitude" and not just a job. That's why soldiers don't "die," they "fade away." Just taking off a uniform doesn't mean you're no longer a soldier... or a Marine, airman, or sailor. So, Gooch? "Good luck," Semper Fidelis, and thank you for serving your country.
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Sunday, September 20, 1998 at 02:23:56 (EDT) 


Kodiak, I tried to e mail you but keep getting bounce back. I have the rings and the scope, but the rifle has the wrong bases on it so I can't check re-zero untill next weekend. The rings look like they will clamp the scope tube down very well. There are four screws per ring and they are pretty wide. The QRWs don't look as nice as the Warne or Talley but I think they will probably hold better. BTW- I'll be using the QRW stuff to mount a 4X Leupold to a model 70 .458 so we shall see how well they hold...
Rich <>
WA USA - Sunday, September 20, 1998 at 03:03:19 (EDT) 

Howdy Folks,
Here's my 2 cents worth on the subject of weapon type and selection etc.. At this time I am the proud owner of 2 Savage 110FP's. I enjoy the weapons and am very satisfied with them; however I want to qualify that statement. I belive Russ, Mr. Bain,Gooch, Al and Rick and several other gentlemen have said "IN ORDER TO BECOME A BETTER SHOT YOU HAVE TO SHOOT" That became my creed in my weapon selection. I want a Chandler M40A2 but the reality is on a corrections officer's paycheck that is not going to happen next week (unless the lotto God takes pity on me) because the wife and dog enjoy food and shelter. With the Savages I am able to shoot weekly and have over the course of the past several months my shooting skills have improved. And at this time both of the weapons shoot better than i do. Had I waited for my dream weapon i would not be getting better because I would not be shooting. I have done some things wrong and learned many things useing those weapons (Ask James Jarrett,Russell and Rick Bowcher there has to have been a time they asked themselves who is this dumb ass? But to their credit they sent me an answer and i have done my best to apply what they advise in the field.)With any luck and pay raise;)I want to be in New Mexico with James next year with a Savage learning how to use it. And then in the future there will be a brand new shiny Chandler with Stagger's name all over it!!! Shoot what you can afford because the skills are all the same and in reality most weapons can outshoot the operaters.

Sarge:Lets call the bad day at the hide a draw:)

Russell: I have all the supplies in for that little project you sent me info on. Will go it for on monday and e-mail you the details then,
Stagger 10-42
Stagger <>
USA - Sunday, September 20, 1998 at 03:11:59 (EDT) 

To Stagger: I agree completely! What good is it, for me, if I have spent so much money on something I can't afford to shoot. As Mr. Bain has pointed out, I've upgraded my rifle, but only as time and money have permitted. I'd like an AR-10, but why? I have a .308 bolt gun and my M1 Garand is a .308 -- so why spend money for an AR-10 that I don't "need?" As for an AR-type of rifle, my ActionMaster is cheaper to shoot in bullets and powder and cases. Now, there's a certain .50 caliber I'd like to get, but... why? Bullets are a buck a pop, or more. Powder -- HA!!! About 230 or more grains??? Cases? PRIMERS?! (Have you priced primers for .50s lately?) And then, optics. If I "did" get this certain .50 caliber rifle, when could I afford to shoot it? And if I don't shoot it, I'm not getting proficient with it... and so what did I bother spending my money for? If I'd have been in a higher income bracket, I might have gone with a Remington or a Winchester -- but I know "me," I'd have swapped barrels, frozen barrels, polished barrels... whatever. That's the way I am. No matter WHAT I would have bought, I'd have upgraded it over time -- but I was shooting sooner because of what I was able to afford.

Speaking of AR-15s, has anyone used (successfully) the Hornady 75-grain A-Max in an AR with a 1:9" twist? A 1:8" is recommended, but if the velocity was fast enough I would think the bullet might stabilize.

On publishing the laser rangefinder review: You might try John Gammuto at Shooter's News.
Russell E. Taylor <>
Silvis, IL USA - Sunday, September 20, 1998 at 04:37:00 (EDT) 

Some very honest comments on live after active duty, my respect gentlemen. I can only guesstimate what it is like, but I still remeber the last day when the Bundeswehr told me "Ok, you can change to civilian clothes now and pack your personal belongings and leave as you whish"
That was in 87´ and hit hard, after only 4 years, I can only immagine how you feel after a longer time.But I still have my Reserve duty to get dirty and smelly and crawl around the bushes. It helps, but it doesnt get close to live in a real Jägerbattalion.

I´ll be arriving in LV on Wednesday around 14:00 and will be in the Palace Station, any one in the area ??? Bain ?

Spend a drenched wet day with Stefan at the range in Holland yesterday, and found out that we have the same humor. Were able to shoot only at 100 Meter on soaked paper, or pop little rocks in the berm at 350 Meters.
Shot the 2185 Semi in .300 WM with realoads for the first time, did´nt cycle, smeared the boltface over the brass, to hot a load, 70Gn N-160 behind a 190 SHPBTM, I´ll back of again and try again tommorow.Group size was OK with five holes touching each other, but could be better considering the creature comforts while shooting.

I really look forward to Nevada. *sneeze*

Torsten <>
Germany - Sunday, September 20, 1998 at 06:50:55 (EDT) 


I have not received the H&K info yet.

Came back from an "unsuccessful" raindeerhunt last night. After 10 hr climbing/yomping we spotted a herd 5km away coming in our direction. Then other hunters shot an animal in the front of the herd wich took a u-turn and disappeared into another valley. Followed the herd next day but a windchange made them disappear again. 3rd day yomping back to the car. 14hr march... The last mountainridge before decenting to the car was named "Whining ridge". I know why.

Met a local sheepfarmer looking for stray sheep before winter. He was armed with a standard M98K with Kahles 6X42 mounted in EAW short rail sidemount. He had the scope detached in a hard case. Classic rig.

I went into the mountains in full uniform with a Tikka M55 HB sniperrifle. My huntingbuddy had optimized civilian equipment and could have left me for dead. I'll try to get some tags next year if only to have a reason to re-equip:-)

My wishlist for next year:

Leightweight "sniperrifle" with 2 scopes in QD-mounts.

Rocky Snowstalker boots.

Norrona Dovre mountain clothing.

Norrona Pararanger rucksack. (used by Norwegian and other special forces)

Norrona is a Norwegian producer of equipment for extreme conditions. They have a referencelist like no other.

Crossing Alaska on foot.

Crossing Antarctica/southpole on skis alone unsupported.

North pole on foot unsupported.

Some of these mainiacs served in my National Guard unit.

If anyone is interested in Norrona equipment let me know.
Oslo, Norway - Sunday, September 20, 1998 at 08:37:24 (EDT) 


You lucky dog. Lost Wages. It's a great place to visit once, maybe twice. It is a great place to visit with a bunch of guys. If you leave the city, be careful. I was born and raised in northern Nevada and it hasn't changed all that much in the past 100 years. There are lots of cows and damn few women. The cows are plenty nervous and what women there are tend to have "wide load" problems and they all wear pagers to warn folks when they are backin' up.
Enjoy. I always considered it a good sign that the motto on the flag of my birth simply says: "Battle Born".

Bravo 52 Actual
James R. Jarrett <>
Cans Ass, USA - Sunday, September 20, 1998 at 11:34:28 (EDT) 

Your only saying good-by to the job, and as hard as that is you will find out that the ones you trained will take care of the ones comming up, just as you did for the ones who trained you, and then took their rightful place in the hearts and minds of those who came after them. What you'll miss most about it is the PEOPLE. Then you will find out that no matter where you go you still have them, your part of a fraternity,and like James Jarret said, your gear is always welcome at my place, and no greater compliment can be given."Semper Fi" Bud I wish you the best and as James says, "If your ever in my neck of the woods drop in, you have a place to hole up".

Good to hear from you!! Sounds like your staying active in the shooting game. I had to clean mine and hang it on the wall for awhile, my wife grounded me(HA) How did you do in the other match's?? I hear Wyoming will be a team shoot next year you had better pick your partner early(HA)
Pat <>
USA - Sunday, September 20, 1998 at 12:18:28 (EDT) 

Mr. Bain,
I just read your piece on weapons choice, and must congratulate you on a well thought out AND well written piece. You put forward quite a number of good points.
Her ein South Africa we are both blessed and cursed. Blessed in that we are not limited to a very strong local industry, but can get the best from overseas. We get those from the USA and from Europe - fine names like Sako, BRNO, CZ, Tikka, Steyr, Mauser and more. We have a local industry as well, but only one manufacturer ( Musgrave/Vector ), who have problems competing due to the low volume.
But, at the same time we are cursed with a high prices. The rand is not what it used to be ( I can remember it be R0.70 for a dollar, now it is R6.30 - SIGH ), and import duties and importer's cuts take their toll.
So, I think here the choice is even wider, as is the price gap. R3,000 - R15,000 for a factory sporter, that's not even speaking custom-built rigs.
As for optics? I won't even mention the costs of those, but we are once again blessed with the same variety. Somehow, however, it seems that here, unlike the rifles, the European stuff is more popular, even though more expensive - seems like we can appreciate better quality? :-). Names like Swarovski, Bausch & Lomb and Schmidt und Bender are high on the lists. Obviously the cheaper Japanese models reign supreme in the everyman's market - it is a bit difficult to justify spending a whole month's pay on a scope :-(

Sir, I take my hat off to you - 'nuff said.

Marius Ferreira <>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Sunday, September 20, 1998 at 14:54:03 (EDT) 

Gooch: Semper Fi man! This too shall pass. It was hard for me to lay down the "funny green hat" but it became the thing to do after some things I went through. I echo the thought, Thanks for your service, stay safe. If you're ever around upstate SC let me know and you'll be more than welcome to drop your gear here.

Russ: Tried the 75gr in my 1-9 twist AR-15 and had fair results with it. The bullet REALLY drops off at long rabge but once you get the distance and etc figured out you're GTG.

Bain: What was the name of the place you ate at? I'm really worried about you son!

To all who e-mailed me: Thanks for the welcome back, sometimes it's good to be missed!

Out here
Gramps <>
USA - Sunday, September 20, 1998 at 15:20:47 (EDT) 

Which Savage owners are whining? I think I missed something. I own one Savage 110 FP and am not whining or bragging about it in any way. I now own or have at one time owned a few dozen rifles from Remington, Winchester, Browning, Ruger, Steyr, Brno, Sako, Husqvarna, Heckler & Koch, and FN. My Savage 110 gives me smaller groups than any of these other rifles, that is a fact not an opinion. If the gun can hold up in field conditions I don't know, having only shot it from the bench so far. Snicker and call it a "Wundergun" if you want but the damn thing shoots incredibly small groups.
Try shooting one sometime, you've got a suprise coming.
USA - Sunday, September 20, 1998 at 15:32:35 (EDT) 
To Rich:
I don't know why you couldn't get through to me but I appreciate your effort.
I bought a set of Redfield bases and Burris Signature rings today at a gunshow but I would still be interested in hearing
about how your Leupolds hold up under the .458 magnum.

If anyone in northern Illinois is looking for a new rifle I found today what seems to be a good deal. Bass Pro in Gurnee, IL has Rem 700 BDL , teflon coated and synthetic stock in
7mm Mag, .308 and .270 for $299. The sale is on until next Sunday (Sept 27). I haven't checked the Shotgun News yet but this appears to be a good buy. It looks like I'll be getting a new toy soon.
USA - Sunday, September 20, 1998 at 15:47:08 (EDT) 

Sarge, looking tired and bedraggeled, throws a rock from his hide HOPING to hit SOMETHING:

Well range day was NOT good! My .308 did it's normally superb job of hitting whatever I was aiming at. Now my .30-06 on the other hand is a VERY different story. Here is where old Sarge needs some help guy's as this is SUPPOSE to be my primary four legged hunting weapon.
I'm still trying to find a load this gun likes. As the mulies we have around here wouldn't take to kindly to 180 gr ammo (to be precise if I used 180's there wouldn't be much left of a mulie) so I lean toward 165's. But I'm REALLY open to suggestions! Powders: I've used N-140 - ok but nothing great, today used some IMR 4350, that was real crap couldn't keep a 100 yd group inside 2-3", though did give some 1" groups in my son's .243 with 100gr SBT, sooooooooooooo help Sarge out with some suggestions. Just can't seem to find this ones preference! Savage 111 right at a year old with a run of the mill 3x9 scope - hey its a hunting rig!
Thanks in advance guys!

Sarge creeps back to his hide, takes off his glasses and decides its time for a nap!

Sarge <>
Area 51, NM USA - Sunday, September 20, 1998 at 17:05:30 (EDT) 

There is a NEW TACTICAL TRAINING GROUP in California. Reactive Tactical Training. They are a P.O.S.T. certified organization with proffessional and experienced instructors. I highly recommend any of there courses to anyone. They train S.W.A.T. and Federal organizations. They offer courses such as tactical pistol, tactical shotgun, 6 sniper phases, entery tactics, fieldcraft, Ghillie suit construction, intelgethering, and special advanced one-on-one instruction. There is also courses for civilians. They have one of the greatest angle firering courses I have ever seen.Anyone interested Email to for information od course dates and prices. R.T.T. is in the prosses of establishing a web site.
Jerry Hull <ReactiveTacticalTraining @>
Roseville, Ca. USA - Sunday, September 20, 1998 at 17:30:15 (EDT) 
Jerry Hull <>
USA - Sunday, September 20, 1998 at 17:40:23 (EDT) 

I find your comment that there won't be much left of a mulie after hitting it with a 180 grainer strange - why do you say that? Are you using HE 180 grainers? If the 180 grainer works in your rifle, use it on your mulies, and you'll still have lots of meat to eat. They are definately NOT smaller than the blesbuck and springbuck I've shot with 180 grainers from my 30-06 - and damage was minimal.

Mr. Bain,
I read your piece again, and was just wondering if you're just a little prejudiced against Savage? Have you shot them? Damn, I haven't even seen the bone of so much contention here in South Africa!

Marius Ferreira <>
As usual, RSA - Sunday, September 20, 1998 at 17:44:08 (EDT) 


I'm still trying to get dry from spending yesterday out in the rain with Torsten. I wouldn't have missed it though! I really enjoyed seeing him in his Neoprene JUGA (Jäger Unterwasser Ghillie Anzug)!!! Things really got exciting when he donned his snorkel and stalked though knee-deep mud, only giving his position away because of the snorkels dayglo-orange tip.. Torsten, what a giveaway!!!
I enjoyed shooting your Mauser man!
A warning to anyone planning on meeting him in the states: Torsten said p*nis... He he he. (Beavis and Butthead style). I'll buy one of his Phrobis scopes for my Savage anyway, just because he made me laugh..... (?)


Down periscope!
Stefan <>
Under, Water The Netherlands - Sunday, September 20, 1998 at 19:00:36 (EDT) 

Russell if this thing posts double again I'll drop you a line e-mail. Honest to God I only pushed once. It's Internet Explorer but it belongs to someone else so I can't change.
Gooch, I was glad to meet you before you pulled the pin. Things will get better but you still remember. I still get that feeling when a C-130 flys over. And it's been a long time.
Pat#1, do you know about my adventures in pardner land? Hope my legend isn't spreading too far. If I have met you I've need my memory jogged. It's not my age that's getting to me It's CRS, I've had it for a long time.
If anyone makes Vegas I'll be with Borders and Associates.
Keep up the Rem/Sav/Win/ect. wars they're great.
Footnote: the Ukrainians have the best looking snipers.
Semper Fi

Pat#2 <>
Whiterocks, Utah USA - Sunday, September 20, 1998 at 19:36:15 (EDT) 

To all
I have just purchased a B-Square bipod for my PSS, it cost
less than Harris and seems more solid,silent and adjustable.
It also comes in cant/non cant and 'roto-tilt' models.
I can't comment on durability at this time but it appears
to better than the Harris. Does anyone have any experience
good or bad with this kit?

Control versus push feed. I have read many articles that
stated that in dangerous game (and tactical shooting?)
the control feed action is better. However these articles
and venerable shooters fail to mention that a jam is easier to clear in a push feed.

Does anyone know how the 168gr HPBT became sniper King?

Darryl Todd <>
- Sunday, September 20, 1998 at 22:24:21 (EDT) 

NOTE: To all double posters
I am just as guilty of this offense as anyone else but I have learned a couple of things. First do not panic if your message is not immediately posted to the duty roster. I have waited up to 12 hrs. to see my message posted. Second, do not hit the back button on the browser if you do get lucky and get an immediate post. If you hit the back button on your browser after admiring your post when it is posted you will go back to the window in white text that says This is what you submitted. Whenever that happens it will repost your message automatically. I use i-explore and I know for sure that this will happen.

That airplane problem got the old creative juices flowing again. Here is another problem for you. (To those in charge, feel free to delete this post if you think it is not appropriate here, maybe you can resubmit it to the Ballistic Solution of the month and replace that stinker that has been sitting there for the last 8 months.

You and your partner are in a foriegn country on a secret mission to terminate with extreme prejudice that terrorist named xxxx xxx. The latest intelligece reports indicate that this man will be riding a train car with his tali-ban cronies. He will be in the tenth car on the right hand side sitting next to the third window. Your only opportunity to accomplish you mission will occur in one hour when the train he is riding on will be traveling parrallel to a highway for 2 miles which is 500 yards away from the train tracks. The train will be traveling 60 miles per hour. The road is well maintained and little used. You notice that there is very little wind, not even enough to drift smoke and the chances that the conditions will be the same when you take your shot are good. Your issue weapon is chambered for the 7.62 nato and the ammo is the 173 gr. fmj bt b.c. .496 at 2600 f.p.s There is not time to set up a shot, your only chance is to hop in an armored limo which happens to be handy and leave right now. You will instruct your partner to drive at the same speed as the train when he gets even with the 10th car and the third window. How far do you lead the target and why? Time is running short, you have a train to catch!
Steve <>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Sunday, September 20, 1998 at 22:40:49 (EDT) 

Kodiak: Sounds like you took my post personally. Next time, address your concerns to me directly and offline by e-mail or by phone. Good, solid discussion and debated, no matter how heated, is what the Roster is about. Not expressions of hurt feelings, ad hominum attacks, or whining.

Lance: More on grouping. You are going to get differences in size of groupings depending upon whether the rifle is shooting handloads made specifically for the rifle, or factory ammunition, which may or may not digest well with a given rifle. For accuracy and precision, handloads are the best. Not all of us handload, LE can't handload, and the military does so only for "special" work not proper for discussion here. If you are civilian, you can try Federal, Hornady, Winchester, etc., and see which cartridge works best in your rifle. For example, last time I talked to Andy Webber about this, his rifle preferred Winchester match ammo over all others. The Federal Gold Medal just wouldn't work for him. You won't know what works best with your rifle until you shoot a number of different types out of the gun. Indeed, one can make some of the same arguments for NOT recommending one brand of ammunition over another that one can make for not recommending one rifle manufacturer over another.

Daryl Todd: Yes. Oh, you want to hear (or read) it? The short answer is that the civilian and LE shooters emulate the military. The military went to the Sierra 168 gr. BTHP MatchKing because of its success in match competitions. Lake City match ammo just couldn't cut it anymore. Seeing the improved accuracy of the MatchKing in competition, the military wanted to use it in combat (something that some have said happened for many years before formal and official approval). The Dept. of the Army JAG gave approval and it was used by operators.

How it spread to the LE and civilian communities is perhaps a guess. Certainly, the military (and in particular, the USMC) has a great influence on federal law enforcement, namely the FBI. The FBI, of course, is a great influence on state and local LE. Perhaps as well, the success of the 168 gr. MatchKing in competition brought the major manufacturers and the civilian shooters over the bullet as well. At any rate, the bullet became the "Sniper King."

The 168 gr. has two limitations. First, it is good only until it goes transonic. This problem gave the military fits and so it is probably going to switch over to the 175 gr. MatchKing (the USMC and Navy are onboard, the Army and SOCOM are not yet). The second is more of an LE concern; the MatchKing, not being a true hollow-point, does funny things in a human body. Sometimes it expends all of its kinetic energy in the target and sometimes it does not. The Wound Ballistics Review covers this in great detail.

My uninformed thoughts? The 175 gr. is the way to go for military. Perhaps LE should use a true hollowpoint for their missions. (I leave it to the LE shooters out there to share their thoughts, I don't feel competent to express an unqualified opinion on the matter.)

Double Posting: Screw it. Scott and I used to do it a lot on Dave Reed's old site. S--- happens.


Mr. Bain <>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Sunday, September 20, 1998 at 23:06:13 (EDT) 

Russ: You asked about the A-Max Hornady bullets and how they reacted in an AR-15 with a 1-9 twist. My experience is not well. My groups however were shot from a Remington 700 Tactical which I built with a Douglas 24 inch barrel and the same rate of twist you expressed. Now the cat's ass in accuracy is the Sierra 69 grainers. This rifle will group these bullets with W-748 and IMR 4895 at .3" or better at 100 yards and I've had even smaller groups than this at 200 yards. This weekend, I just bought a new toy and found a Colt AR-15 Tactical - Elite with a 1-8 twist 20 inch bull barrel. I have yet to put this baby through its paces, but I believe, the new Sierra 77 grain long range bullets will do quite well with my new acquisition. I don't really care for the "Eurolux" scope that Colt provides and am considering changing it over. But I'll see this coming weekend. I'm still going to stay with the W-748 and IMR-4895 powders for these reloads.

Marius: Please do't feel like the Lone Ranger down there with your high scope prices. It is becoming more and more difficult to stay "snipingly fashionable" with the costs of Leopolds, Swarovskis, and Schmidt and Benders up here also. I don't care how wealthy you are, a thousand bucks as still a chunk of change for almost anyone. But this is what the police departments want to see, you have to make it available for them to putz around with before they place their orders.

Gramps; Its nice to have you back agains. I'm glad you were able to find the computer and keyboard, after being sexually abused by your teenage bride. Please tell us what that cane is used for???

Pat #2: UKRAINIAN SNIPERS! Good looking? Man---Vat da hell you been drinkin'. How many shots of Stolly did you have (Stolly is Russian - not Ukrainian). Samogonka is Ukrainian home brew! Damn get those eyes checked!

Gooch: Just reading your lament on leaving got me all weepy eyed, because I remember that day of being discharged from the Air Force. You leave with anticipation but also have reservations. All the friends you have will still be your friends. You did neglect to mention what you are going to do with your new found "Freedom" are you going back to Oregon and fish for salmon and drink Olympia beer? What ever it is, Mr Gooch, "good Luck from all of us.

Now to all of you who have double posted recently @$#^$&*%(^*^&^)$* ()(#&*%#*^&@*(()#%a*^ &&&$#@#^!!!)!)@(#&$^&$((, AND ANOTHER THING *&&%$$##&&, &^%^$#@$$%#%. Now let that be a lesson to you double tappers. (How's that Russ??) :-)

Al Ostapowicz <>
Surviving the Rigors of a Dreamy Weekend in, Ohio USA - Monday, September 21, 1998 at 00:20:23 (EDT) 

Steves Sniping problem:

My logic says that since the train and the car are traveling together one could shoot directly if there were no atmosphere since the motion of the car imparts a velocity to the bullet equal to the velocity of the train. Therefore, this is exactly the same as shooting in a 60 mph crosswind, with fixed target and shooter locations except that the "wind" will be uniform, which a real wind isn't. My computer says that the wind "drift" will be .41 inches per mph wind or 24.6 inches. So you have to set in 24.6 inches or 4.9 moa of lead. The bullet should arrive at the target .699 seconds after you fire with a velocity of 1776 fps and with 1211 ft lbs energy. The bullet will drop 15.9 moa from boresight. The rifle would be zeroed for 500 yards before hand. The vertical component of wind drift should be negligable. The problem with this method is trying to shoot from a moving car. It requires about a 1 moa max shooting error. A 2 moa error will be a miss. A 1 mph error in the car or train speed will be a miss.

An alternate method to eliminate the wobble of the car (what car is stable to 1 moa/sec) is as follows: Have the driver speed down the road (that armored limo should do 120) then near the end of the road lock up the brakes and stop. If the rifle is preset to 728 inches of lead (12.3 in/mph) or 145.6 moa lead and zeroed at 500 yards for elevation, you'll have over 20 seconds to set up, track the train occupant and fire when it's nearly perpendicular. Aren't those Redfield style mounts great to allow you to do that? Canting will be a problem with this method so get a scope with a level. This method still allows only a 1 moa total shooting error but its under the total control of the shooter. Wind has no
effect with this method.

I'm not sure which method would work better. Either way this will NOT be an easy shot.

Lou Boyd <>
Phoenix, AZ USAUÇ? - Monday, September 21, 1998 at 00:33:31 (EDT) 

Bain or whatever your name is: You make a most excellent point regarding modification of the Savage rifle. I have mulled this over during the past year and have concluded that I will make absolutely no modification to my 110FP for precisely the reason you stated. I have hope that I will one day be able to purchase the items I want and will reserve my efforts at improvement for that time. With respect to your rangefinder review, it's good to know that you are not another gunwriter whore. Good luck with finding a publisher.

Paul J. Headlee <>
Ogden, KS USA - Monday, September 21, 1998 at 01:47:52 (EDT) 

I thought the day glow orange snorkel was my way of respecting "Oranje boven"!I´ll paint your Phrobis!
Got the 2185 working with 65Gn N-160.

TorF , I´ll drop them your adress again, hopefully this time.

BOOT selection ?

What kind of footwear are you triggerpullers donning when heading into the bush ? Standard GI ? Or fancy stuff, can your feet yomp more than 30 k with them? and what are your preparations on your feet before you do so? Special socks ? inlays ? foot powder ? Anything in the possibles bag ?

With our feet being our only reliable means of transport lets see if you give them the same attention as the weapons!

Down into the Mud again ........(wish it were Camo-Jello tm)


Torsten <>
Germany - Monday, September 21, 1998 at 02:54:48 (EDT) 

To Torsten, re. boots.

I usually use regular norwegian GI boots. They are ok as standard leatherboots. For winter we have someting called footbags that you put the regular boots into. The footbags are 100% watertight and are wery well isolated against cold weather. The footbags have perfect fit and can be used on skis (NATO-planks) with kandahar bindings. Unfortunatly the footbags are too clumsy for yomping long distanses.

I've tried some civilian Gore-Tex boots. They don't last too long. My huntingbuddy is satisfied with his Rocky Snowstalkers. They are well isolated agaist cold and can be used in winter with only one pair of socks.

As I stated I have served with some guys who think it's fun to cross the poles on foot. One of them, Erling Kagge, has walked to the North Pole, South Pole and climbed Mount Everest. ( I've asked him why he do this. Reply: I don't like to work!) They have obviously some tips for survival. You are probably not going to belive this one, but here goes: Put a thin plastic bag on your feet BEFORE you put the socks on. If you have watertight boots the isolationlayers will stay dry and work 100% all the time.
Oslo, Norway - Monday, September 21, 1998 at 04:32:51 (EDT) 

To Torsten, re. 30km yomp.

The Norwegian record for 30km yomp with uniform, GI-boots, 6kg rucksack and a G3 is 1hr57min. You have to be able to walk the next day to be qualified...
Oslo, Norway - Monday, September 21, 1998 at 04:41:12 (EDT) 

That's not too far from where I'm at. Now you know that I'm looking for a left-handed Rem.700 VS, and I just might have to go up there and see what they can do for me.
I do wish you would leave an E-mail address so others could get a hold of you. If you get the chance, drop me a line before you go back up there.
D. West <>
Orland Park, IL. USA - Monday, September 21, 1998 at 04:51:30 (EDT) 
Got back in late yesterday afternoon from Ft.Benning's English range....very interesting shoot, even if it did occur only to me!! Shot 288-18x. Not good you say?? OK then try these parameters....shoot 10 rds @200 and 10@300 all within 20 minutes, prone supported...clear line, then shoot 10 rds within 3 minutes @ 100.. Now for the 300 target blew down before I fired on it, RO told me once I completed 200 to swap over to point 11 (I was at 6) and complete my course of fire.....I did and didn't even need the alibi time that was offered !!!
NOW....MY QUESTION--- Which is more important, .30 bugholes @100 or first roundhits at 500 or 600 etc???? Anyway, met Jeff, good guy....nice meeting new shooters, "listen to Hook " !!! One more thing, for all the beancounters, 100yds 100-9x, 200yds 910-2x, 300yds 97-7x... sorry for the long post!!! Later
Gunner, Target,"Policrats",1100,one round"blivet" of FeMat(fecal material), FIRE !!!!
Will <>
WAR EAGLE !!, Al USA - Monday, September 21, 1998 at 09:24:40 (EDT) 
Sorry,I didn't think about you not knowing my e.mail name. I'am Pat Murphy, I talked to you out at the shoot in Wyoming when you were telling me about your "Partner" from the year befor. When I found out it was going to be a team shoot and I seen your name I couldn't resist the "Shot"(HA)Hope to see you out there again, you were just one of the many nice people Shawn and I met out there.

You might want to check that sale out real close. It sounds like the standard ADL SYN. stocked Remingtons and they ususally sell for around $350.00 and sale price out at $290 to $300.00. I doubt there Teflon coated but they do come in a matt black finish and for the price are a good rifle. To have a rifle Teflon coated is expencive!! Good luck and good shopping!!
Pat <>
USA - Monday, September 21, 1998 at 09:52:41 (EDT) 

I'mmm Baaaaaaaaaaaaack! SMTC sniper school part II. It just gets better and better.

"Its the heart of the Warrior...."
Amen Gooch. The beer is on me...

To Al the Lurking Guinny from New Yawwk. You da-man. Whipped cream anyone? Schweeeeeet....

Bain: WHERE ARE MY F**KING BLANKs you thieving lawyer! DO not deny it, I KNOW you have them!

COOL STUFF #1: For any of you interested, SMTC will be running sniper sustainment courses in 99. These will consist of weekend classes though out the year. It was great to hear that short-term recurrency training will be available. Expect a lot of scout/sniper related scenarios and Intel gathering. The role of the sniper is not just to shoot.

COOL STUFF #2: I just received an Armament Technology Tapered base and ring set. Folks, if you have need of something along these lines, this mount is the way to go. It is TITS!!! Sorry ladies. I just spent two weeks with some very hairy chested neanderthals and it'll take a day or two for the testosterone overload to wear off. Blame it on Dan Basso, Cromagnon Extraordinair! But I digress. This mount has a recoil lug, and is as strong as anything I have ever seen. It extends out over the recoil lug so you can use just about any scope/ring combination and it comes with mated and numbered Mk4 type rings. Review to follow.

Cool stuff #3: AT also sent me a set of their tapered shims. These give 15 moa verticle. The rear shim is still very thin so no raised cheek piece will be required once these are installed. If you have good mounts and rings but can not get out to long distance due to your scope, these shims are the trick. At $25 they are a steal.

Cool Stuff #4: Mil-Dot Master. It works and works well. I think just about every student bought one at the sniper course. Cheating bastards all! I am still faster with a calculator, but the MDM doesn't need batteries and has a lot of useful data at hand! It even gives you slope angles. Great tool!

COOL Stuff #5: H.S. Precision now offers a unique M700/M24 stock. It is an adjustable stock in that it has removable spacers (Andy Webber's Work) and it has a vertically adjustable cheek piece that is well done. No more creeping Length of Pull adjuster! This stock is excellent with a tapered scope base!

In closing:

My pseudonym is no longer Xring. Just call me Spider Bait. I do believe there is not a single living spider in Mineral County West Virginia that DIDN'T bite me in the last two weeks. This must be how spiderman started....Goochman, what's a sniper trainee to do? Next thing I know I'll be spitting on my food and waiting for it to disolve before I eat it...

Scott Powers <>
USA - Monday, September 21, 1998 at 10:11:48 (EDT) 

All the which brand of rifle talk reminds me of playground talk many years ago. Bottom line is most rifles can be made to shoot. Some factory rifles shoot well as is. Some are pure crap. It doesn't matter which factory made them all have good and bad ones. In buying a rifle take into account your needs, your true abilities (when your awake and not dreaming) and your pocket book. Then buy the best you can afford that fits your needs. Then practice with it, dryfire and learn the trigger. Shoot it past 100yards and see what it can really do.

As to scopes, you get what you pay for. Don't look for Objective lense, power and tube size and expect them to be the same. What you are looking for is light gathering, clear picture to edges, and ruggedness. The Military choose the Mk4, but statistically it has a small exit pupil so brand "X" with a 56mm Objective and 30mm tube should be better? Wrong the quality of the lenses on cheap scopes is not good and try to shoot them in low light and you can't get a sight picture. When buying a scope don't just pick it up and look through it in bright light, thats like kicking the tires on a car lot. Don't cheap out on the rings. It is a weapon system not just the rifle or scope that makes it work. Mike M.
Calif. USA - Monday, September 21, 1998 at 12:40:28 (EDT) 

Russell: By reading your posts on Savage and responses to the bucks vs. results, along with the shooter vs. equipment argument. Let me say: I don't make 100K per year, but it is close. I can afford the best. You and others pointed me to the Savage as well as every credible gunshooter article I ever read that did the comparison.

I don't how good I will be with it but my gunsmith is a very high ranked shooter and said I couldn't get a better gun for learning with and eventually doing well with.

My point is to say thank you for your advice as well as others who pointed me to the best production gun made at the cheapest cost. Out of the box Savage is best(period).

In regard to cost and my income, anybody who isn't bull headed/selfish or just plain foolish (especially when you have a family) won't waste it no matter how much he makes. Sure these manly types say my wife won't or if my wife finds out or my wife this or that, but what it really is these guys are covering up for their responsible sides saying it ain't right to cheat my family for my benefit.

I will be shooting for fun/hobby. If I am good maybe I can get a job using a gun (doubtful). But hey my wife has waited 20 years to get the house done, I'm talking a yard that is currently nothing but rocks and holes in the furniture from my ankle biters. So you and anyone else who spends time answering the stupid question what gun should I buy, is helping us ignorant people to ask the right questions.

So to all who took the time to help me thanks, that is the reason why I try to put some things back into this site.

Finally to all you people who ask stupid questions thank you also, sometimes I can't figure out how to even word the stupid question.

Mr Bain: I am glad you are happy. I think every gun is cool just like every pocket knife. And i do appreciate your sentiments. But I felt that you were speaking to many like me who out of ignorance say my gun shoots 1/4MOA at 200yds out of the box and then don't go on to tell you how many groups of how many rounds and the cleaning process used and how the bird sh-t that fell on my trigger finger caused a single flyer.

I agree that the Boors and the Whiners can get on my nerves but this is an open forum and intelligence should not be used to decide a persons ability to input or extract.

By the way Remington's suck and Savage rules. Nanna nanna Boo boo. (just having some fun).
tom <>
FR, VA USA - Monday, September 21, 1998 at 13:30:31 (EDT)

Hello Mr. Bain I'm working on Rod photo's for the SOF show right now. The kid and I shot the handgun comp at Rods Saterday before we left.

I did the six round drill in 1.60 sec with one of Rods 9mm and took 3 in the comp.

Spider Bait that's a good name for you Xring you wear it well. Friday night we when back and got that black item at the candelwick that Mr Bain missed! SWEET!!!!!!!!! LeMay OUT
LeMay <>
Mich USA - Monday, September 21, 1998 at 16:06:43 (EDT) 

I too am Scum but of the S.O. type- I agree with you principle in shooting more difficult senarios and ranges will make the easy stuff REAL easy. However this will work only if you practice and apply all the fundementals up close as you do at distance. Most people when shooting will really watch the sights when out at far ranges when the targets real small and theyre real shakey. But bring them in close where the target appears real big in relationship to the sights and they'll watch the target and want to see where the rounds hit. They loose track of all the fundementals of marksmanship. When they should concentrating on the fundementals and picking a small spot of the target to place the shot in. Practice as you do but partice correctly.
glenn <>
Albq, NM USA - Monday, September 21, 1998 at 18:34:48 (EDT) 
To all on the Rem/Savage thing- Dont look for excalibre. There are no magic swords that through their own qualities or beauty will make YOU shoot any better than the next gun on the shelf will. True some weapon systems are enhanced but they will not shoot any better than the shooter. Buy the best that you can afford and challenge yourself to out shoot it.
glenn <>
Albq, NM USA - Monday, September 21, 1998 at 18:45:25 (EDT) 
To All:

Just received my mildot master slide rule range estimating
tool, and it is really slick.

If you do any type of shooting, get one. It will save frustration over dead calculators when the batteries go south in 20 degree weather, or you accidentally smash the life out of the calculator, or any one of a hundred other
things that can go wrong.

Buy this mildot master thing.
USA - Monday, September 21, 1998 at 18:46:40 (EDT) 

To Marius:
Marius, I was trading police patches with a South African police sniper a few years ago. He told me about that Musgrave that you mentioned. it sounds like a great gun. The the 100 meter test targets that he sent me were impressive. How much does that gun cost in U.S. dollars and do you know if it's possible to bring one into the U.S.?
USA - Monday, September 21, 1998 at 20:03:59 (EDT) 
To Mr. Bain:
Mr. Bain, I didn't take your message personally. I'm sorry if it sounded that way. I didn't e-mail you directly because I thought that what I wrote in that message was what this board is all about. Look back and read both of our messages and try to judge who was in a bad mood when he sent the message.
I don't come here to make enemies so if something that I have written sounds nasty, believe me it's unintentional.
USA - Monday, September 21, 1998 at 20:21:49 (EDT) 
To Pat:
Pat I did make sure of that sale price on those teflon Remingtons and there was a mistake. The sale flyer has them priced at $349.98. When I got to the store they were on the shelf priced at $299.98. The salesman said that the flyer was wrong, the lower price was the correct price.
I asked to see one and while I was caressing and fondling it I looked at the tag hanging from the trigger guard it said in big letters " REMINGTON 700 TEFLON". It is a BDL model regularly priced at $499.99.
I understand your doubt but it's true.
USA - Monday, September 21, 1998 at 20:53:28 (EDT) 
To D. West:
D, I sent you an e-mail a little while ago but I'm not sure if it went through or not. If you didn't get it let me know.
USA - Monday, September 21, 1998 at 21:08:30 (EDT) 
Got it. Thanks!
D. West <>
Orland Park , IL. USA - Monday, September 21, 1998 at 21:23:18 (EDT) 
Thanks for the info and welcome back!!!!
D. West
USA - Monday, September 21, 1998 at 21:26:37 (EDT) 
To all youse guys that were at SMTC the last two weeks,
I hope you did'nt ruin my good standing at the candlewyck.

To Bain :Land line me sometime soon!
To Scott I have some pictures to send you.
To LeMay and Co.: Sweeeet!
To Team Dallas: Please come back next year.


Uncle Nunzio's Nephew <>
New Yawk USA - Monday, September 21, 1998 at 21:47:30 (EDT) 

Kodiak: Bad mood? Me? No, pal, I'm just tired of the bull---- coming from some on this page who express opinions as facts and who mask resentment or disdain as either fact or opinion. I didn't say that group included you and I'm not now. I am saying that I'm not inclined to be so tolerant in the future of what I perceive as either boorish or whiney behavior. Too much noise.

As for Tom Scott, I'm not sure what all of your points are, but let me address one fallacy in your post. There is no one "best" rifle. Not even the amazing Savage. You will never read from me that Remington is the best, nor that Savage is the worst. I will tell you that based upon my criteria, a Remington-based action was the way to go for the bolt gun and the Springfield was the choice for the semi-auto. Others would make different choices. I may disagree, but I respect the choices, when well thought out.

Let me repeat the essential question: "what do YOU want?" The Savage is nonstandard, has a cheap stock, and a very rough bore. The company compensates for the bore with a tighter than normal chamber. Remington is the indsutry standard, has a good stock, but is built so as not to blow up if shot with an overpressure handload. To get good accuracy out of one, often it is necessary to rechamber the barrel. Savage is easy, dollarwise, to get into. Remington, because of its predominance in the market, has much to say for the shooter looking at a custom gun. You make the call based upon what you want out of the rifle.

One thing is certain; this isn't about how much a guy makes. If you really want something, you'll find a way to make it happen. If not, you won't. Some of my peers own state-of-the-art, surround-sound home theater systems, others are satisfied with just a black-and-white tv. Most of us fall in the middle, because our priorities are different.

We all make our choices in life. I don't begrudge anyone theirs. I sure as hell will no longer tolerate those who are smug about their choices -- whatever they may be -- vis-a-vis the choices of others on this page. That was at the core of my post. Doing so is not the free exchange of ideas, but is the childish behavior of the mentally and intellectually stunted. This is not a slam of you, Tom, you've added much to the site (Kodiak too). I'm just tired of the bull----. I advise anyone with further comments on the subject to send them to me offline.


Mr. Bain <>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Monday, September 21, 1998 at 23:01:23 (EDT) 

Al: You da man!!! Next time, we're going for the younger waitress. Talked to Team Dallas today. They'll be back for advanced CS in June. They'll also be shooting in the Texas Pistol Academy long range tactical event at the end of October. I'll post more tomorrow. Team LeMay may be going, perhaps Ryan too.

Team LeMay: Outstanding. Thanks for completing the "mission." E-mail offline with the particulars. (I knew it would be black.)

Spider Bait: How's your partner doing? He shot well. Hear you guys smoked the surveillance and intel gathering portion of the course. I suspect that there will be press coverage of Cory's cover story. Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet.


Mr. Bain <>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Monday, September 21, 1998 at 23:07:43 (EDT) 

Steve: Did you see the note on CNN about the death of the terrorist xxxx xxx in that "foreign" country? They said he was riding on a train when the window behind him shattered causing the bodyguard sitting in that seat to AD his MP5. Two other bodyguards thought he was trying to assassinate xxxx xxx and opened fire. The first bodyguard tried to protect himself but shot xxxx xxx in the process. Net result, two bodyguards and xxxx xxx killed, one body guard (the first) may recover. No mention of why the window shattered. Thanks for the week of R&R and letting me use the limo. I'll get the speedometer recalibrated.

Lou Boyd <>
Patagonia, AZ USAU - Monday, September 21, 1998 at 23:40:52 (EDT) 

I read the review on the book by Mike Lau " The
Military and Police Sniper". I would like to find a source to
order the book. Anybody out there have an idea?? My limited search ability revealed notta.

Also would like to be in contact with those folks interested
in precision rifles who live in Northern AZ or Southern UT.

I am a law enforcement officer. I am not a sniper.

Please send any order ideas or suggestions to Hope to hear from ya!
Shawn McNally <>
Page, az USA - Monday, September 21, 1998 at 23:43:55 (EDT) 

Al: Can't tell you what the cane is for, (I'd have to kill you)! :-)

Bain: Knew you were alright when you said the M-21 was your rifle!!!!! Butter bar or not you're OK in my book son, (I do worry about your choice of eating places though)!

Russ: Steady on man!!!!

Out here
Gramps <>
USA - Tuesday, September 22, 1998 at 09:06:24 (EDT) 

hello again,,,
I´m having problems locating a brass manufacturer that makes brass for 6mm/284 or full lenght sizing dies for that caliber, so I turn to you guys here at S C, and if you don´t know then nobody does.
So if somebody could either post an answer here or just e-mail me!
this site really is the best!!

straight shooting..
Haraldur Gustafsson <>
Egilsst., Iceland - Tuesday, September 22, 1998 at 09:17:30 (EDT) 

The address your looking for is Precision Shooting Inc.,
222 McKee Street, Manchester, CT 06040. Its a good book and has a lot of info on the M40A1 and the M24s with a lot of balistic info and picture's of my "IDOL" Gooch(HA).

Sounds like a great deal!!! You really got lucky on that one I hope you bought one or two!!

I'am probably showing my ignorance here, but what the hell is SMTC?? It sounds like a good time with some great guys!!
P.S. Can't we all get along!!!I'll bet the only thing that this bunch would EVER agree on is that this is a GREAT sight(HA).
Pat <>
USA - Tuesday, September 22, 1998 at 09:44:00 (EDT) 

SMTC = Storm Mountain Training Center. One of the better fire arms training facilities available to those interested in actually being GOOD with their chosen tools. Located in West Virginia. Top notch range facility and instructors. Rod Ryan is the principle.

Al (uncle Nunzio's)!! You crawled out of your hairy chested hide! Schweeeet. These photos include said waitress I hope? No? Drat. Ok, I'll happily take possetion of photos of the September sniper course grads. Hey, how'd you like that tracer fire?

Bain: Lemay lucked out. Don't let him snow you. I went back to pick up the item and the person in question could not remember where it was placed. He came by later after they found it agian.

Bain: Partners fine...for an accountent. Yeah, we had some good intel for the mission. Between the drawings, FFPs, floor plans and structural analysis, we did ok. Cory is an actor of the first order. Not too shabby for a Florida hick! hee hee....I bet the person in question is still drooling over the prospects. At any rate, the excercise was excellent. Intel gathering is what it is really all about isn't it? Wish I had started that day unhungover!

LeMay and Herrig: you guys coming out to the West Virginia IDPA State Championship? Sounds like you are ready! Looking forward to whoopin' yer *ss.

To ALL. enough of the "this verse that crap". We all buy what we buy because we like them. If Savages cost $600 each Russ would buy them and do not let him tell you otherwise. The point is, no matter the cost, people generally purchase that with makes them feel good or that which they enjoy owning. They usually work their budget around their perceived needs. This is getting to be a dull topic and just ain't worth pursuing any further. Lets get into thing that will give LeMay a warm fuzzy: The PINK Mist! Schweeet!
Scott <>
USA - Tuesday, September 22, 1998 at 10:27:47 (EDT) 

Gramps: Thanks man. The rifle has more than its share of detractors and problems (maintenance issues), but I love it. As for dining establishments, Keyser, W.Va. is limited to Denny's, Pizza Hut, and the Candlwyck. The "candledick" has a bar and very pretty female waitresses and bartenders. Preferring some feminine companionship in the evenings, we invariably ended up there.

Pat: SMTC is Storm Mountain Training Center and is between Keyser and Elk Garden, W.Va. Like all good firearms academies, it is run by a former SF NCO. Even a butterbar can respect that!!! Whoops, gotta run!

Bain out.

Mr. Bain <>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Tuesday, September 22, 1998 at 10:27:47 (EDT) 

Pat: SMTC Storm Mountain Training Center, somewhere in this site there probably is a link.

General: More money doesn't make a better gun. I have never believed you can get something for nothing nor do I believe the opposite that the more you pay the more you get.

By the way happiness is about to overtake me, my stock is coming back today. It is a standard laminated Savage stock that I had a friend cut back the finger grip area to adjust my finger rest and indented for my thumbs swell. Everything but my trigger is standard, it just took a little tender loving care to assure the firing pin protusion was consistent and centered. But I will work up loads on my $600 308 and let you all know how poorly I shoot and how good it shoots.

Let me ask is 200yds the best distance to judge accuracy, is 10 five shot groups good enough? I will shoot the first shot after allowing the barrel to cool completely and having been cleaned at a seperate target to give first shot accuracy. Or is there another more acceptable method?

Mr. Bain: You add spice to this forum. Thank you.
tom <>
USA - Tuesday, September 22, 1998 at 10:51:27 (EDT) 

After reading about the 700 BDL Teflon I called Remington to see what they were all about. According to Laura, they were a special run for Bass Pro. As far as she knew, only the internal components were Teflon coated. The barrel is not Teflon coated. The price is still too good to pass up. Either my age or my CRS is showing; but what the heck is a "Butter Bar"?
Doc <>
Bland, MO USA - Tuesday, September 22, 1998 at 11:22:21 (EDT) 
I am the brains of team lemay. If I didn't spot for him he wouldn't hit a car at 100 yrds. Why because I'm toooo Sweeeet. Team Herig and Lemay are get plain reservation for Dallas. Look out everyone the craze is coming to town.

Spider Boy : When is the state match give us dates we will try to make it because were shooters.

Bain : I agree go for the young one next time.

Al : Have you recoved and walking better after a week away from Dan?
Herig <>
Muncie, In USA - Tuesday, September 22, 1998 at 12:20:58 (EDT) 

All you guys with rough bores. I just used the Necco Kit to FireLap my bore on RemPSS. Used five rounds 400 grit, six rounds 800 grit and eight rounds twelve hundred grit. It took the rough spots out and still shoots great.

I started using Moly coated bullets and no more Copper Fouling, but a Scientist friend says Moly is trouble and now I am worried. He says molly was used in Nuclear Plants for lube on bolts, but that under high temp. (500 degrees F) it actualy infiltrated the molecular structure of the metal and stress cracks happened. Has anyone else heard of this. Mike
Calif. USA - Tuesday, September 22, 1998 at 12:45:43 (EDT) 


I just happen to have my Varmint Hunter mag. handy so here's some address's for you: Redding Manuf. 1089 Starr Road, Courtland, NY. 97603, Telephone 607-753-3331 For the brass try Grayback Wildcats, 5306 Bryant Ave. Klamath Falls OR. 97603 Telephone 503-884-1072, Hope this helps,


Sounds like a fun place but,alas,to far away for this country boy and I'am probably to old and slow to be crawling around in the woods anyway!! PS Scott, I hate spider too!!
Pat <>
USA - Tuesday, September 22, 1998 at 12:46:19 (EDT) 

Pat: I don't "hate" spiders...I just get a little tired of being their choice of morning, noontime, and evening meal! Hell, Herig didn't bathe HALF as much as I did and is a whole lot'd think he would have been prime rib in the multiple eyes of the little buggers!

By the way, Pat, if you are too old or tired out to swing a full two week course, keep in mind that SMTC offers a two day (weekend) long range rifle course. The farthest you'll have to walk is from the car to the range. You'll shoot steel from 250 to 900 yards. Schweeet....

Doc, a butter bar is a second leiutenent. Bottom of the food chain. Lower than dirt. Fetches coffee for everyone above him...Kind of like an intelligent dog. A rank best unassed as soon as possible! Bain looks and talks like one... ;-)

Ray, poor Al probably missed Dan in a big way. With out him, there is simply no hope of another whipped cream event. None at all...

Team Herig: I believe the IDPA State Championship is in October. I'll try to get you the info today. And yes, I'd have to agree with Ray, he is the brains in the outfit. His wind dope was usually dead on. Although his choice in Keilbasa, weeeell....

To all of you who didn't attend the course with us, I apologize for all this inside joke stuff...the class had some of the most notorious characters one could ever hope to spend time with. A total blast. But alas, most of the stuff has to be censored...Hell, if we posted a picture of Dan's face on the site, it would crash!
Scott <>
USA - Tuesday, September 22, 1998 at 14:44:01 (EDT) 

Rae and Jim,
International Defensive Pistol Assoc 1998 West Virginia State Championships will be held 10-11 Oct. 1998; limited to 60 entries. Early entry deadline and fee is August 25, 1998, $50.

If you are not members if IDPA, ask Rod to set you up. The courses of fire are excellent at this match. The competition is pretty stiff but the shooters are great guys. You can get all the information on the SMTC website. Follow the link to IDPA and then to the SMTC IDPA club. I am looking forward to whooping you both in the stock service pistol division! Uhrahhh.
You both show up, the first round is on me. I think I owe you one...or two or three...Hmmm...maybe you-all should just go hang with Nugent that weekend. I am not sure I can afford the tab!

Scott <>
USA - Tuesday, September 22, 1998 at 14:55:22 (EDT) 

I want to start shooting long range for fun and get into shooting aganst other shooters. What would be a nice rifle to start with, grow with? Should any adjustments be made to the rifle. What adjustments\rifle would I upgrade to for competing. What cal, 308 or 338 or 800wm.
Joseph Abernathy <>
Waleska, Ga USA - Tuesday, September 22, 1998 at 17:37:05 (EDT) 
Lou: Re. train problem
I have always thought that close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades. Apparently, I am wrong about that. I think that you may have missed a factor or two in your calculations. Give yourself a wack on the backside with your best cleaning rod and give that laptop another workout. :-)
Steve <>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Tuesday, September 22, 1998 at 18:01:44 (EDT) 
To All SMTC gang,
Ifound a mil dot master plastic cover if your missing one
I'll send it out.I also have pictures,if ya want copies
let me know. Gotta go now,Dan's picking me up to go to
work. (we sell moly slide at Village People concerts)

Seriously,I was honored to be in the company of all of
you and hoping to see you soon at Storm Mountain.

Get ready for CS2 next year and youse better be there
cause I know where you live!

Walking better, Al
Uncle Nunzio's Nephew <>
New Yawk USA - Tuesday, September 22, 1998 at 19:09:15 (EDT) 

I am Captain US Army and the S3 training Officer at the Army's Mountain Warfare School in Vermont. I am looking for data and comments on Mountain sniping operations. Any info would be appreciated.
Nathan F Lord <>
Jericho, VT USA - Tuesday, September 22, 1998 at 19:29:59 (EDT) 
Has anybody used Leupold 25X spotting scope with mil-dot? I'm looking for any pro vs. con comments in regards to actual field experience in using this spotting scope. Currently, I am considering getting either Nikon XL spotter kit or Leupold 25X spotting scope. Thanks.
Shutoku Shia <>
CA USA - Tuesday, September 22, 1998 at 19:33:45 (EDT) 
I'm really glad the,"My rifle is better than your rifle !" debate has finally seen its proper place...finished.I personally can enjoy shooting just about anything as long as it is interesting; no matter how much it costs or who makes it.

Got a question for all you reloaders out there who reload with military brass.It has often been said that military brass has less case capacity due to its heavier construction and resulting case wall thickness compared to some commercial brass.

So having said that,how much variation in weight/case capacity between the two brass types can be considered significant or relavent to have an affect on chamber pressures and accuracy ?

For example,I'm trying to reload .223 for my AR-15's.I measured some Canadian IVI military brass and the weight averaged 100.2 gr. versus an average of 96.2 gr. for the commercial brass I've tried.The highest powder charge I've tried to date (25.5 gr. W748 w/69 gr. Sierra Matchkings)have shown little pressure signs in either case.This particular load is not very accurate in my weapon however.

I know that you should allways reduce propellant charges and re-evaluate your loading when a component change is made but I'm curious as to how much case weight variation is within normal and acceptable boundries.

Any comments or experiences that anybody can share would as allways,be very much appreciated.

SCOTT:Enjoyed your article in T.S. very much.Great Job !

Jeff B.
Jeff Babineau <>
Truro, N.S. Canada - Tuesday, September 22, 1998 at 19:45:22 (EDT) 

Can anyone out there tell me how to get hold of Christensen(?) The barrel guys? I saw a varminter with one of their graphite/carbonfiber barrels at a gun show recently. I was in a rush so I thought I'd find 'em on the web.
I'm a former jetbutt, no sniper or PD guy and shoot for a hobby. I have no wish to be a sniper, but I do admire the resolve it must take. This page is the best ever for getting answers to gun & shooting questions.
So, all you folks take care of yourselves. If you don't know, jetbutt was what the jarheads called us AF pukes.
Jim Liles <youngestliles@hotmail>
portland, or. USA - Tuesday, September 22, 1998 at 20:35:16 (EDT) 
Mk. IV M3 Update: An Australian regular of this page informed me yesterday that Leupold is looking into the manufacture of a BDC for the new 175 gr. M118LR and its commercially available cousins. We'll keep you posted as we hear more. For those of you with the scope, you can purchase either the 168 gr. Match BDC or the 173 gr. "M118" BDC for the scope (I assume that Leupold has similar cams for the new Long Range M3 variable power scope). Remember, these cams are calibrated for 59 degrees Fahrenheit at sea-level. (Gooch, Rich, this correct?) Your performance may vary.


Mr. Bain <>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Tuesday, September 22, 1998 at 20:44:44 (EDT) 

Im am leaving for Lost Wages now, see you there, or here again next week.

Torsten <>
Germany - Tuesday, September 22, 1998 at 20:54:59 (EDT) 

Hey guys, I've been reading the duty roster for some time now and always find it informative and enlightening to say the least.After many years of not shooting due to loosing my shooting partner to a depressive illness I decided to take it up again.Over the summer I have aquired a small but respectable collection of rifles.I have recently aquired,what I believe is my best so far, a 700VS chambered in 308.Please,I am not trying to start up the debate again on which is better. I am merely saying the rifle is a shooter.I have topped this with the best scope I could afford, a Tasco 6x24 TS.While some may be snickering at this, let me say it was all I could afford to put on this gun for now and it seems to be working well.Also a Harris bipod.This combination will print overlapping 3 leaf clovers at 100 yards.

Now I shoot between 1 and 4 times a week, every week since April.I guess about 3-5,000 rounds over five different rifles.So I am improving a little bit.In the one competition I was in in July I shot a respectable 5th place.168 3x offhand at 100 yards at NRA 50 yard targets.

My question is what groups do you all get and still call yourself snipers? 1 MOA? 1/2 MOA? more or less?I guess what I am trying to figure out is how bad I really am in relation to some of you proven shooters should I ever decide to shoot in competition.

I realize I am not ready yet as I am just trying to learn how to dope wind and I must say it is not easy to learn on my own, but I am trying.I someday hope to call myself a long distance shooter. Take care
Bill Mohr <>
Utica, Ny USA - Tuesday, September 22, 1998 at 23:47:53 (EDT) 

Jim Liles,
Here is your info
(damn, this was hard to find!)
Christensen Arms
385 North 3050 East
St. George, Utah 84790
Phone# 435-674-9535
fax# 435-674-9293
E-Mail (yes, they do have a site.)
If you have any problems, drop me a line and I'll work it out.
D. West <>
Orland Park, IL. USA - Wednesday, September 23, 1998 at 00:11:39 (EDT) 
Mr. Bain, I did get the mark IV M3 on your advice, but there wasn't any calibration info in the box just the instructions on how to zero. The scope came with four cams, ony one of which is for .308, the 168 match king. I would like to get the calibration info if it's available, what velocity for each bullet and the enviro conditions. Does anyone remember who was selling the blank M3 knobs? (I would really like to have one for the 155 palmas)

"we sell moly slide at Village People concerts"
oh that's too much, somebody help me up off the floor

Kodiak, I had my smith order the right bases, he said it's no problem, he used the QRW system on a .450 Dakota and it held but the recoil busted the guts out of a Vari-X III...

Rich <>
WA USA - Wednesday, September 23, 1998 at 01:33:21 (EDT) 

Torsten: Thanks for the EAW info.

Jim Liles: I was very interested in the Chistensen for some time due to the hype that the barrel appeared to dissipate heat rapidly. I have no patience when it comes to cooling down. However, I was informed that carbon fiber is an insulator and this was confirmed when I spoke to Chistensen. Having an insulator around a very thin barrel liner strikes me as a great way to burn out a barrel quickly, especially as the shroud will not indicate your actual heat level.

I have just received my Armament Technology tapered shims. Slicker than owl shit. That's all I can say about them. I'm so excited to finally see a properly engineered and executed product that I've been speaking to Mr. Webber about building me a rifle. Whoops, the mildot master and slope doper are both extremely good products, it's just the big companies that suck. If I want to use bullets in the 175-180 gn range, is there any need to tighten up to a 10.2 twist?
Wouldn't common sense dictate that ALL scope bases be tapered? While I'm on the subject I'd like to mention that, if it wasn't for the front dovetail, I would have lost my scope on my .338 the other day. Hasn't it occurred to any of the manufacturers that the Redfield windage adjustable ring needs a larger contact point with the base? Definitely not designed to handle recoil.
Has anyone had any luck experimenting with the Barnes X boattail? It's the only bullet offering SUPERIOR terminal performance with a high BC. If you have gotten them to shoot, any suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance and sorry for the long post,
Andrew <>
Austin, TX USA - Wednesday, September 23, 1998 at 02:07:01 (EDT) 

Re: Train Problem
Steve, you say I "missed a factor or two" and should ruin my best cleaning rod because of it. :-) I admit that I had my ballistic program set to 5400' elevation (where I normally shoot) but then you didn't specify the elevation of the road and tracks (or temperature or humidity). If you think my concept of the problem is wrong, I'd like you to explain where you think I erred so we can discuss it. I don't believe you could find a road which is smooth enough or a driver who can drive steadily enough to allow shooting with 1 moa accuracy from an armored limo at 60mph. So I came up with a generally implausable way that the mission got accomplished anyway.

The correct way to take this guy out is with a few cruise missiles targeted on his home. That is the current method approved by the Executive is it not? It's kind of nice to be able to shoot sub-soa (sub-second of arc) groups at 200 miles.

Next assignment, Sir!
Lou Boyd <>
Patagonia, Arizona USA - Wednesday, September 23, 1998 at 03:24:25 (EDT) 


I need an answer ASAP please. an ARMALITE AR10 for R2,500, basically US$400 - is that bargain or not? That is all the info I have.

Does it come in different calibres? Or just .308? Is it semi-auto? I seem to think so. Remember, when I read these things on the page I just scan through, not to remember, 'cause we don't really get these things in South Africa.


Marius Ferreira <>
Pretoria, Gauteng RSA - Wednesday, September 23, 1998 at 07:24:25 (EDT) 

Marius, if the rifle in question is a for REAL AR10, it is definitly worth $400 US!!! These retail NIB for about $1000 to $1500. If the rifle is an original AR10, as in one produced for any of several foreign nations 20 or so years ago, it is certainly worth the asking price and possibly more. I do not know the collectors value, but bets are that you are gettign a good deal.
Scott <xring>
USA - Wednesday, September 23, 1998 at 09:01:07 (EDT) 
Marius: That is a HELL of a bargain if it's not shot out! If you don't want it send it to me and I'll gladly take it.... As some of the kids here say, "sweeeeeet"!!!

Torsten: You're as bad as Russ about answering your phone!

Bain: Are they gonna keep you at Butter Bar forever? A good man like you that shoots an M-21 should at least be a Captain! Now that you explained it, GOOD CHOICE on the eating and drinking place!

Out here
Gramps <>
USA - Wednesday, September 23, 1998 at 09:04:36 (EDT) 

Bill Mohr: Bill, with the Rem 700VS you should be able to consistently group in the .5 to .75 range. The 700 VS is nothing more than a 700 PSS with a thinner varmint weight H.S. Precision stock. Same barrel. Same action. Very good rifle. You may be able to net smaller groups than those listed above but it will take very good consentration and consistency of hold. On a bad day you will see groups as large as 1.2" but most likely that will not be the rifle!

With 168 Fed GM I can consistenlty shoot .6 moa (or less) five shot groups from the bench or from the prone supported. but any lapse in consentration will open the group up. If you are shooteing at greater than 200 yards, wind will play hobb with you if you missed a windage change and you will see groups go south.

Good luck in your rediscovered hobby! Welcome to the money pit!!!
Scott <xring>
USA - Wednesday, September 23, 1998 at 09:15:23 (EDT) 


I'am probably not the one to answer your question but I know several snipers and exsnipers and was a LE sniper for several years, which is much different than the military,
but I can tell you this, it takes a lot more to be a sniper than being able to punch little holes in paper at 100yds!!
You have to be able to judge distance and wind and be able to shoot in all types of conditions after crawling or laying in your own piss or shit for hours at a time, make a shot that may mean the difference between life and death (your own or someone elses) I guess what I'am trying to say is snipers aren't people who shoot little holes in paper, their a special breed few people will ever understand and most are excellent long range shooters. I think you need to compare your talents to a benchrest shooter not a sniper.

Jeff B.
I use a lot of military brass and I have found that usually backing down one grain is a good ball park figure to come up with the same loads as you would get with the commercial cases. I like it because it reloads so many more times than the commercial brass. I try not to mix brands though and I also like to keep the same lot or at least year stamp if possible. I like to think it keeps those nasty flyer's out of there(HA)
Pat <>
USA - Wednesday, September 23, 1998 at 09:58:40 (EDT) 

Rich: Yikes. You got an M3 because of me? Seriously, I recommend you call Leupold and order the blank cam from them (same thing for those wanting the military "M118" cam.) As for calibration, I suggest sighting in the rifle at the distance you want and then setting the elevation knob to that distance. Any distance marked on the cam, other than your set distance, will not align perfectly with your actual elevation. You need to know what the discrepancy is and then factor that in (along with humidity, altitude, light, etc.) the next time you shoot. Remember, the scope was designed for rapid enagement of body targets, not the precision shooting available with 1/4 MOA scopes. I suggest zeroing at 100 yds., the distance for true precision work, and then learning the idiosyncracies of the rifle at 200 - 1000 yds.

Marius: Great find! I see advertised in Shotgun News from time to time original AR10 parts kits, so it should not be hard to get spares for you. $400 is a great price for a great piece of history. If memory serves correctly, there were some African countries that adopted the AR10. I'll bet this rifle has some great stories to tell.


Mr. Bain <>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Wednesday, September 23, 1998 at 11:49:11 (EDT) 

To Rich:
Rich, I'm suprised to hear about that Leupold scope being damaged by the recoil. I have several heavy kicking SSK barrels for my Contender including the buffalo buster .45-70. When you fire that thing your body experiences sensory overload. When I called SSK he told me that in his experience Leupold was the only scope that would hold up under that extreme recoil. All my Contender barrels now wear Leupold scopes and so far none of them has ever given me any trouble.
Thanks for getting back to me on those rings.
USA - Wednesday, September 23, 1998 at 11:55:52 (EDT) 
To All,

Does anyone out there know of a place where I could find some Lake City "Match" brass for a 308 preferably 1990s or even 1980s (once fired)?? If so would you please e.mail me. Thank you!!
Pat <>
USA - Wednesday, September 23, 1998 at 12:34:01 (EDT) 

Mr Bain......I went back with the Michigan Twins and got the undergarments.....Heh heh heh.

Scott and Bob......You two are truly sick twisted individuals.....I'm proud to have been aquainted with you...*snif* sorry, don't mean to get sentimental.

Ray, Jim...let me know when you two are going back for sustainment courses. (don't tell Bain that she only showed the garments in question to us, I'm gonna get'em next time.!!)

Scott....her husband came in looking for you....better get on the scope!

Damn was that AT-1 M-24 a fine rifle....I went to the bank yeterday to get a darn loan to buy one. Andy webber is to be commended for one fine piece of hardware. I'm in love....

With the Rifle, not Andy.

Later Gents!
Cory <>
Panama City, FLA USA - Wednesday, September 23, 1998 at 13:11:20 (EDT) 

Scott.....Spider Bait?

Al.....thanks for all of the help, I learned alot. I always thought people from newyawk were twisted I know I'm right.

Mr Basso, you are a truely sick and twisted individual....Don't change anything.

Hey, Bain, I want a copy of the news paper article when it comes out! Keyser will be a booming place when it gets those 700 jobs. Everyone did an outstanding job on the intel mission. the "flyboys" were the best.

Marty, Thanks for the PSS information....I'll be back at ya in a week or two.
Cory <>
On the beach, USA - Wednesday, September 23, 1998 at 13:40:44 (EDT) 

To Storm Mountain Gang,

Hope everyone made it home safely from the second week. I had a great time and wished I could have stayed for week two. Hopefully Tim and I will do it again next year. Sure going to try. Thanks to the Assistant Instructors for all the help! Demetre, thanks for the recon. Rae and Sweeeet...let me know when you're coming in for the shoot in Dallas. If anyone else is coming let me know.

Jerry (Team Dallas)
Jerry Iliff < >
Dallas, TX USA - Wednesday, September 23, 1998 at 14:17:54 (EDT)

PAT!!! I have some LC brass for sale. It is either M852 or M118 Match. THe majority is M118. The brass has been prepped by uniforming the primer holes and deburing the flash holes. I believe it also has Federal 210M primers installed but I'd have to look again to verify I did this to all of it. I have it seperated into lots of 50 by weight. Amount unknown. I'll have to check. Email me if you are interested. I stopped using LC brass when I purchased 1000 rounds of Fed GM. Now I have more brass than I know what to do with!
Scott <>
USA - Wednesday, September 23, 1998 at 15:17:52 (EDT) 
Cory: yeah, spider bait. I seemed to have attracted every darn one of them during our many stalks. I even had one as a hitch hiker for about an hour one afternoor. It ran all over the back of my head and I could not get it for the life of me. I finally nabbed it when it bit me in the neck. Spiders are not SCHWEEEET!

By the way, did anyone ever figure out what that big black one was with the yellow tiger strip on its back? I let one use my leg for a highway during one stalk! I figured it was bigger than I was so I'd just sit real still till it either had its way with me or lost interest and moved on!

Great news on the AT1-M24! I wish I could do this too. Andy has got one of the absolutely finest sniper rifles on the market today.

Husband? husband? Hmmm....I'll give him Al's phone number..yeah, thats it!
Scott <>
USA - Wednesday, September 23, 1998 at 15:25:55 (EDT) 

Regarding the Armalite AR10 for R2,500 ( US$400 ), the following update. I just spoke to the guy on the phone, and I am quite sure I will NOT be able to buy the rifle, though not for monetary reasons. As you may, or may not, know, we have to get a license for each and every firearm here in South Africa - BEFORE you can take posession of the firearm ( including air rifles ), from the police. And, unless you have VERY VERY good reasons, like a border-farmer, where safety is non-existent type of thing, you just don't get a semi-auto, let alone an automatic rifle.

This rifle is selective semi-auto/automatic. It is of .308 calibre, and was built around 1968 in THE NETHERLANDS. He says this is printed very distinctively on the rifle. He claims these were mostly made for the Lebanese Christian Militia, where he was a mercenary as well in the early eighties. He has had the rifle now for 16 years, and the previous owner had it for five years - in Australia. We were discussing Armalite in general, and I forgot to enquire about the condition of the barrel. He did mention that the working parts are in mint condition, but that one small pin ( selective fire pin? ) is missing. The rifle has been repainted from its original green/brown ( forget now to what ), but a good job was not done by whoever did it, and that paint is peeling.

Also he claims about 4,000 of these were ever made. He said even some Japanese AR10s were made at some stage. He does NOT have internet access ( else I would have sent him here pronto ), but was not very receptive to the idea of Armalite America building AR10s - said I'm most probably mixed up with the AR15! Russ, I even him about you working there, and he still wouldn't believe me.

So, what does the experts say?

Marius Ferreira <>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Wednesday, September 23, 1998 at 15:31:27 (EDT) 

Scott: Hell I was going to give him Bain's number...but he's got that M-21 and I would'nt want it to jam when he was trying to return fire.

Pray that I get that damn loan. I would hate to have to start selling the kids and the wife to get an AT-1.

BAIN: no more for you! you missed the undergarment in question. It was hanging right in front of you. I related the story to my secretary...she said she would have taken them off right there and handed them to us!

To get on a Rifle related subject...I was thrilled to death to be able to shoot Rods AT-1 M-24 SWS by Andy Webber. I loved the stock on the thing. the tapered scope mout was very well done, and the trigger was very smooth and broke very cleanly. All I know is I have to have more messing around trying to get by with factory stuff. Although the Remington PSS that I shot did very well also.

Scott, I went to the range after work yesterday and shot the .300 WM with non-moly bullets...It was back to where it shot before...around 3/4 moa groups....that Winchester factory barrel just did not do well with that moly ammo. it took a few rounds (30) before it settled in again. It really likes the 180 grain load better. I think between the moly and the heavier bullet it just choked. And actually it does the best with 150gr Winchester hunting loads. Which tells me the barrel has got to go. Off to Mcbros it goes.
Cory <>
Panama City, USA - Wednesday, September 23, 1998 at 15:56:19 (EDT) 

WWII Hand to Hand Combat Seminar @ the Marshall Civic Center,Marshall,Tx. October 17,1998. Quest speaker John Kary Master Instructor and founder of American Combatives. Topics to be covered impact strikes; impact sequences; knife defense; weapon retention; multiple attackers. Master Kary's students includethe USMC Scout Sniper unit 2nd Batt.25MAr.,USA 19th SFG,DOD SPec OPS. and W. Virginia State Police.
Joe Green <>
Marshall, Tx. USA - Wednesday, September 23, 1998 at 16:37:17 (EDT) 

Hello to all at SC.

Cory Says some of you may be interested in wilderness survival training. Visit my website at

All of the classes are based on approved USAF combat survival courses as taught at the various USAF survival schools around the country and the world.

E-mail or call us! we would love to hear from you!
Eric <>
Panama City, FL. USA - Wednesday, September 23, 1998 at 16:38:42 (EDT) 

Been reading the "rifle-wars" posts .>

The thing that matters most is the adjustment one makes to the loose nut behind the buttstock.

BTW, I've got a Savage .308 that'll put 'em all inside a half inch, and a bud has a PSS .300 win mag that'll come close.

I'm guessing that the Savage's barrel-nut system may make for easier inherent accuracy - Any thoughts?

Also, anyone try one of those Choate Ultimate Varminter stocks? Looks interesting.

Chuck <>
stl, mo USA - Wednesday, September 23, 1998 at 19:44:19 (EDT) 

Howdy boys,

Glad to see that a bunch of you are becoming Armament Technology fans. Pass the word.

X ring - You gotta become one with the environment when you are doing the sniper thing man. Before doing a stalk you can do a varient of the firing line chicken bone cerimony. In this varient you smear chicken grease over your body and roll naked on the nearest fire ant mount. If the ants accept you they won't bite and you are good to ghillie up and go. If they don't accept you then you messed up some how and need to try it again upon release from the hospital.

I saw a SF guy do this one time only he used a ground hornets nest. It worked like a champ and after the epinephrine took effect he could breath just fine!

Seriously though Scott you bring up a good point. If you guys are just getting into the field craft side of this buisness be damn careful to know the critters and fauna in your AO and take action to protect yourself. You run into a lot of situations on your belly not normally encountered when you are on two legs. Between heat casualties, critters and poisonous plants I've probably had about a dozen serious incidents with students since I've been in this buisness. Although a rare example, I nearly crawled on top of a "dud" M203 HE round on Okinawa once. Watch where you are going.

Thanks for all of the kind words re: the retirement. Kind of a reflection on some of the type of people that find this line of work interesting I guess. Something about the experiences we go through that forms a bond huh?

Okay guys lets talk about something field craft related.

What is your favorite rifle support other than bipods? How many of you have experience using camera tripods? We have been using them in the military for years now and they are becoming SOP. How many of you guys practice with slings? THe canadian competition had an excellent stage which required alternate firing positions other than the bipod supported prone.

Lets get off of this "my dogs better than yours, because he eats kennel ration..." thing. Shit man, I don't even own my own sniper rifle! So I can't say anything. Always had an armory full of them to play with. I'll be saving my nickles and dimes to get my own AT-1 or maybe Andy will build me a C-24....Hmmmm maybe a Savage no....a PSS no....I don't know guys which do you think is the best?

Gooch out.
gooch <>
Sherwood, AR USA - Wednesday, September 23, 1998 at 21:45:14 (EDT) 

Pat: I have been reading and I agree 100% with you that there is far more to being a sniper than shooting.The disipline alone makes it entirely different.And I won't degrade it by calling it a sport even though in my present context I shoot for sport.

I agree that I should be comparing my shooting to that of the benchrest crowd. But I have found that some (most) of that crowd are a little snobbish. If you don't own a fully blown BR race gun and don't wrap your arm so tight that it turns blue (to stop your blood pressure) they don't want to know you.

As I did my part for God and Country and am in the law enforcement field, I thought that this forum could be my niche.
Bill Mohr <>
Utica, Ny USA - Wednesday, September 23, 1998 at 22:21:13 (EDT) 

Bill Mohr: It's your Country too, man. Welcome aboard. The sport of tactical long range shooting is taking off, and there's none of the snobbishness that one finds with the BR crowd.

Gooch: I never get bit by the spiders, snakes, etc. You know why? Professional courtesy!

Bain Out

Mr. Bain <>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Wednesday, September 23, 1998 at 22:36:53 (EDT) 

Gooch - You are still an "EVIL MAN"!! Keep me posted on your final choices and whereabouts. My work days lately have been 0600 to 1900 or 2000, so my net time stinks.

Bill - Don't worry about Pat and welcome to the land of long range! You'll find that here on this site everyone gets bit once in awhile. Watch, ask questions and join debates! Hell man, I try to stir as much s**t as possible on my bad days.

Gooch - crossed sticks with sling when possible. Use the middle three sections of a fishpole antenne and join with 3/16 inch bungee. Repeat then tie together with gutted 550 cord. You now have a bipod that reaches from 6" off the ground to a high kneeling postion. With the sling added for extra stability, it works like a champ. Use the old cotton web sling witht he slide adjustment keeper and figure 8 buckle. Sucker is lose until you need it then goes tight with a tug. Works great and you can still feel your fingers after several hours.

Spider Bait - Next time spread sulfur powder around your belt line, cuffs, and collar! If you can find old Lindaine powder, it even works better. Second choice is Lindaine cream (Crab cream). Put it on the clothes, NOT the skin. You may experience odd neurologic signs if you leave it on the skin for very long.

Pat - Sorry man, just turned in 58000 rounds of M852 LC brass. Maybe you could talk the Army out of them. :-)

Well 0500 is coming fast tomorrow morning so I'll head for bed and see if momma will rub my aching back for me.

Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Wednesday, September 23, 1998 at 23:11:43 (EDT) 

Lou - I think they are refering to your computation of a 60 mph cross wind which in rough terms, using the old in your head figuring gives me a factor of 30 moa and times 5 equals 150 inches of drift for wind. This is rough and based on the 168 round but just to "nudge" you in the right direction.

Now I'm gone!

Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Wednesday, September 23, 1998 at 23:19:09 (EDT) 

It is getting about time for the rifle debat to be over. I'm coming off an eight day work week and I'm trying to play catch up with the "roster". Lets talk about anything other than rifle types. Maybe pursue stalking, camo., wind doping; hell, basic marksmanship would be a welcome change.

Gooch- I finally got Mike's book and a mildot master- its the cats ass.

I'm going to have to take my partner to SMTC next year. Scott, you and Bain are getting me psyched up.

When is this match in Dallas this month, I might try to attend.

Guys keep it schweeeeet!!
Brent "Swede"

Brent <>
Shreveport, Louisiana USA - Thursday, September 24, 1998 at 00:14:22 (EDT) 

Mr. Bain, on the 168 thing. I'm sure that you meant to say this but...there is nothing inherent to the 168 grain that makes it peter out at 800 meters or so. Its just the loads most commonly used (Fed match, M852 etc) with it peter out at this range. THese loads were developed for shooting the NRA National Match course which only goes to the 600 yard line. You can push hand loads to get you to 1000 yds no problem.

I believe the reason that most police depts use the fed match 168 is due to liability reasons (factory load and all of that) and plus the fact that the FBI uses it (more liability stuff). Am I center mass here Rick? Rick is the man.

One problem that we have with the open tip bullets is a lack of penetration through hard mediums such as wood and cinder blocks.

Time to go night night.

Gooch out.

gooch <>
Sherwood, AR USA - Thursday, September 24, 1998 at 00:54:29 (EDT) 

It seems to me, the only way this Savage vs. Remington vs. Others issue will ever be settled is a massive shoot-a-thon. Perhaps Jarrett could procure some land for a makeshift range somewhere in the desolate wasteland of western Kansas. I haven't discussed this in full detail with him, but the logistics couldn't be all that bad. Just think, this great debate would finally be over!!! I, for one, can't wait....

Pat- If your still looking for Lake City 7.62 Match brass, it is available from the Civilian Marksmanship Program. I just bought a batch--virgin 1992 stuff.

I was at the bookstore the other day browsing through the latest addition of American Handgunner, and saw a blurb on Remington's new SWS, something like the Ultra Long Range Sniper Design (ULRSD). It is supposedly still "Top Secret", so the article was pretty general (6 sentences?). I can't remember the details but the round is suppossed to kick the .50's post-1000 yd. trajectory. Anyone else heard any of these rumors?

James--As soon as you find something to do in Kansas, let me know. I've lived here for 6 years and I'm still looking....

Choate stock guy-- I have one for my Savage. If you're small, this is not the stock for you. At 6'3" and 200+lbs, I like it. Plus, if my 110FP should ever fail me, I would feel comfortable swinging it over my head like a huge club, wreaking havoc on whatever's in my path. So, in theory, for $120 you're getting a dual purpose stock. Russell, did you find this to be true during your evaluation?

Eastern Cans Ass, USA - Thursday, September 24, 1998 at 02:31:25 (EDT) 

Kodiak, the scope in question was a 1.5-5 vari-x III and what broke was the linkage inside that ran the variable feature, the scope was still shootable. As would be expected Leupold replaced the scope no questions. The same rifle now has a fixed Leupold M8 4X with no problems. Keep in mind that the Dakota has over 1000 ft/lbs on the .458 win, it's a pretty violent round. The other problem is use, the guy shoots five rounds a week (full charge 500 grn).
Rich <>
WA USA - Thursday, September 24, 1998 at 03:04:02 (EDT) 

Re: Huge Club: It is good to see that you have finely found an appropriate use for your Savage.

Stay Safe!

Depity Dave <>
Just another Remington shooter from, West Virginia USA - Thursday, September 24, 1998 at 07:24:32 (EDT) 

I hope you didn't misunderstand me, I didn't mean to be condesending, but I suppose after rereading my post it could easily be taken that way. I only ment to say that there are a lot of people who call themselfs "Snipers" because they can shoot well and I was trying to say that there is a lot more to being a sniper than shooting. So if I came off wrong I do apologize, and as some of the others have said "Welcome aboard"!! This is a great sight for rifle shooters and there is a wealth of knowledge and information for the asking.(PS There are REAL snipers here too!!)(HA)

Mr. Bain,
It's a good thing you said it or I would have. Kind of like the Shark joke(HA)

We don't have any active program around my area that I know of but its a good thought thanks.

I don't need quite that much but I sure would take what fell off the pallet!! Do you know of any sourse where you can buy some, I only need 1000rds??
Pat <>
USA - Thursday, September 24, 1998 at 09:52:50 (EDT) 

Gooch: I tried. I really tried. First I rolled in a pile of Fox scat that was covered in ants trying to get to the juicy berry core. Then I let the New Yawk team kill a monkey on my ghillie, and followed that up by pissin into the wind while perched 20 foot up on the rim of a range tower. At night. After a few choice incantations, I thought I was good to go. But I think I missed the roll in the cow pie. I KNOW I forgot the chicken grease. Damn man, I guess I am still learning!

On a serious note, I did carry an injector of Epinephrin in my ruck just in case. Never needed it, but I have seen the results of Bee stings gone bad. Not pretty. I have been stung, bit, ripped, gouged, eaten and swallowed alive by uncounted insects, snakes and dogs, but the thing is, you never know when your body is going to say, "THATS IT! This time your F*cked!" I got nailed by a yellow jacket a few weeks back and for the first time in my life suffered a reaction to beat all. Whole arm went numb! Scary. Gives the stalk a whole new face.

My big worry was the Brown Recluse. Didn't see any, but you just never know till the skin starts necrosing!

Pretty thought!

Speaking of Pretty Gooch, I finally got to see a photo of your evil emmeinence. Good shot of you and Andy Webber in The Police and Military Sniper. Just how old is Andy anyway? He just seems to darn young to build such a top notch rifle! The guy is a genious.
Scott <>
USA - Thursday, September 24, 1998 at 10:05:14 (EDT) 

Field craft topic; Hasty rests. Good call! Lets get into this a little. Ideas are most welcome!

The students at SMTC came up with a real winner. They saw the need for height and came up with some Tomato stakes. These were aluminum rods about 4 feet tall with a green plastic coating. They had small nubbs on them that when in contact, tended to make the home spun tripod lock together very nicely. Tied with 550 cord, you have a great way to get up in the tall grass or overcome a rise in the terrain. Best of all, they only cost 99 cents each. My arrow shafts run $5.50 and are too short for a lot of situations.

Example: I spent 45 minutes cutting into the back of a bush to creat a blind to shoot through at the observer. I finally cut a window, and got back about 15 yards from the bush so I'd have some stand off to hide muzzle flash and movement. I set up the tripod, took a look though the scope and it became obvious that the arrows were not tall enough! Arrrggghhh...

The terrain dropped away just enough that my window was a no go. Worse, I couldn't lower the window as the observer would have been out of sight as he was up hill in tall grass. I needed those tomato stakes in a big way! As I only had five minutes left to make the shot, I was out of decision and prep time. I hussled up hill, took the shot in the open and got busted on the observers scan. Moral? Always think it through before you commit!
Scott <>
USA - Thursday, September 24, 1998 at 10:20:50 (EDT) 

Bain did Rod get the photos?

Jerry team dallas I am working on the airline tickes now.

LeMay <>
Northwoods, USA - Thursday, September 24, 1998 at 12:02:45 (EDT) 

On field sticks, I made a set out of oak about 34" long with the pivot down about 6 or 7 inches. There about 1.25" wide and about .5" to .7" thick. There damn durable and you can shoot from sitting down to prone or open them up for off hand shooting. I tried all kinds of commercial ones but they don't hold up under field conditions. Coyote hunting is pretty hard on things. They also work great as a walking stick and about anything else you could think of. There esp steady if you loop your sling over the one side and suck it up tight. Both Shawn and I were able to smack steel at 500yds while sitting with them out in Wyoming.

Isn't the camera tripod a little heavy to lug around??
Do you guys use some type of adapter to rest your rifle on it?? On your own personal rifle, some guy just traded in a Jap rifle with a Douglas barrel on it in 308 at the local gun shop, this weeks special is $150.00!!! It could be yours Buddy, then you could be in a class all by yourself sort of and elitetest, you did say it was the man behind the gun not the gun(HA).
Pat <>
USA - Thursday, September 24, 1998 at 13:00:15 (EDT) 

On the note of bumping into buggers in the weeds as Scott was talking about. One little thing that might come in handy for the occasion is one of the little bottles of pepper-spray. Make sure that you get the good stuff. Also see if you can get the ones with the twist-lock top so not to discharge during field operations. Granted, it won't help much with spiders and such, but for the bigger pests, it beats firing a shot and giving your position away!
O.P., IL. USA - Thursday, September 24, 1998 at 16:58:20 (EDT) 
Field Sticks: I have had to adapt to different shooting methods in the field because of 3 fused vertebra in my neck (no prone) and many knee surgeries (no kneeling), I shoot varmints in open country so fairly long shots. I have ended up with sticks very much like those Pat describes adding target points for arrows to make them stay put. With practice these provide a very steady platform and I find them much faster to use than bipods, in fact with my back against a rest (read tree) can approach bench groups. Pat is right they do make good walking sticks and with my knees that aint a bad deal either.

Jarett: You are not far from prairie dogs, go shoot something, it helps even with missin the high desert.

Dave in Ok.
Dave Martin <>
Ok USA - Thursday, September 24, 1998 at 17:23:32 (EDT) 

Any of you Okie LE types ever run across Glen McEntire of CLEET? If you did, you would remember. Also Joe Evans, Chris Sutterfield who also does LEDT, and one Jim Craig of Poteau PD really helped me.
General info: During my firearms block at academy, we were told that 200 yard open sight slug shots are very feasable against man-sized targets.
Our dept. will let us carry a rifle as long as it is semi-auto with a detachable magazine and open sights are required, as well as a Rifle Operator's Course. This also means no flat topped AR-15's, but a scope is possible as long as open sights are accessable too. Any suggestions on optics? A sling is required, too.
112 officers have died nationwide to date. None are Oklahomans, last LE death in Okla. was in 1996 in Tulsa. The guys at the range say we must be doing something right, because in Okla we average a gunfight every 6 days like clockwork. Surprisingly, we were told that we are one of the few states were 50 yard pistol is a requirement in basic academy. Is this info wrong?
A quick "I'll be damned", I personally saw a man run through our qualification course shooting a perfect score, no small feat, but a frequent one. So what? He was using a Beretta .22 with the double action trigger and Stingers, I forget the model #. Yes, the small one that fits in your pocket. Yes, the itty bitty one with the tip up barrel. 100\100. I was impressed.
To all, I have a lot of info and misc. info that will be of interest to LE types and hopefully shooters in general. I will email it to Russ this weekend, and hopefully he will post it as a short article. Others have emailed me expressing interest as well, as they are curious from other states or are Okie LE applicants and want to know what to expect. Randy Stoddard could also be of some help in this area, since I am guessing we have chewed some of the same dirt. If nothing else, some of you LE guys will either say, man, that is Bullshi! or man, that is some decent basic training. My purpose is to share the info and get a discussion going, as well as show the civilians and non-LE people what kind of firearms training officers get. As time goes on, I could fill you guys in on some good stuff as this is just the beginning.

Nathan Hendrickson <>
Muskogee, Okla USA - Thursday, September 24, 1998 at 20:06:17 (EDT) 

Matt, Dave, Boys!

I'm about all done here on the high plains. I was not cut out for this country or this particular "institution of higher learning." What a bunch of crybabies. I do so miss a new class of Special Forces troops. Motivated, sharp, disciplined, gung ho. What a difference from the MTV generation Xers. I'll finish out the semester and then I'm heading back to Arizona for the spring. I'll be running a sniper problem in the high desert area of central Arizona in March. It will be a full tacitcal White Star Operation. I'll be heading back to Phoenix next week as an expert witness in the "bounty Hunter" double homicide trial. Wish me luck. The prosecution is typical -- convictions are all that matter not justice. Sure a different game than when I wore the badge. I'm still looking for a suitable 19th century long gun. I think 45-70 and maybe 1874 Sharps. Back to Oz.
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail,com>
Cans Ass, USA - Thursday, September 24, 1998 at 21:27:55 (EDT) 

I would like a bit of help please!
In this country there is VERY little in the way of books on ballistics/long range shooting, (I bought a few from but am still awaiting delivery) I was considering purchasing an M24 from AT as reviewed by X-ring here on Sniper country, but it seems that .308 can't do reliable 1000 yard shots. Is this true?
Does anyone with M24 experience know if this rifle CAN do 1000 yard shots?
Whether I can do such shots or not is open to some serious debate, part of the challenge will be to achieve this, but I'd like to know that a rifle I will invest money in CAN theortically achieve this.
Comments by e-mail please as I don't yet know how to sift through this roster and find the threads (I have MUCH to learn )
Joe <>
Cape Town, South Africa - Friday, September 25, 1998 at 00:23:13 (EDT) 
Re: Field sticks
Field sticks are fine except for the problem of carrying them around. I don't know if anyone else has tried this method but it works fairly well. Get a piece of thin rope which has minimal stretch. I've used telflon insulated 20 gauge stranded wire with good results. It needs to be about 15 feet long, depending on your height. Tie one end to any object on the ground. A rock works best if it weighs over 20 lbs. You could also use a knife stuck in the ground or the trunk of a little bush. If there's nothing to tie to, wrap it around your boot and stand on it. Run it from there around the front sling swivel in such a way that it can slide through but not very easily. Continue it back down and around the other foot or another rock or bush. The idea is to make a triangle with the two ropes or wires and your body as the third leg. Make one turn around that object and bring the end up and hold on to it with your hand under the
forstock. You can adjust upward by just lifting the rifle and letting out slack, or lower it by pulling up on the rope. Once your close you can trim it with body position. To use it just lift the rifle sufficiently to put a slight tension on the ropes and fire. I find I can set it up in about 15 seconds. It's probably not quite as stable as the tomato rods (a great find) or a Parker Hale bipod, but it weighs only a few grams and fits in your shirt pocket. You can always have if with you for an emergency and you can use it at any hight.

Lou Boyd <>
Patagonia, AZ USA - Friday, September 25, 1998 at 02:37:47 (EDT) 



You should try and contact some of the people at the Milnerton Shooting range, if you have not done so already. That is close to you somewhere. I am led to believe that there are some long-range shooters there?

Marius Ferreira <>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Friday, September 25, 1998 at 04:27:57 (EDT) 

Lou Boyd:Excellent suggestion.While it is not a "rest" it seems like it would provide a little more stability.I was going to suggest wire tied at one end between two trees or bushes and run under the stock just behind the swivel lug.Then hold the other end in your fore hand and adjust. But you can see the problem with my idea.It takes trees or some sort of upright nearby (not always available).
Bill Mohr <>
Utica, Ny USA - Friday, September 25, 1998 at 08:04:25 (EDT) 
Joe: The .308 may not be the most ideal cartridge to shoot at 1000 yards, but with the proper load, it is up to the task. The real problem is the guy behind the trigger. Wind is the biggest issue from my perspective. Most casual shooters, myself included, have a tough time doping the wind over varying terrain and it shows on target...or OFF target is it were. I can tell you this, if you are purchasing an AT1 and learn to shoot it in wind, you are in for some very incredible shots at long range! That rifle sings. Enjoy.

Shooting sticks for tactical work: Someone asked about carrying methods. Most of the guys I have met stuff them into their drag bag along side the rifle. This limits the over all length to the length of the bag but there is really no other otpion (tying it to the outside of the bag?...ok, that'll work) as the sniper has enough to worry about with out having to hand carry his sticks. For field shooting, as in a stalk test scenario, this can be a problem at times as his sticks might be too short. In the woods it ain't no big thing to make a hasty rest from branches or even in desperation, slinging some 550 between to hefty branches and taking a "supported" offhand shot. Or just leaning into a full size tree. What ever you do, ALWAYS carry 550 cord. This stuff is better than gold, particularly if you strip out the core material.

Next topic: Rifle Camouflage. How some some tips form the pros? Gooch? James? Rich? Rod? (Ryan is the best rifle painter I have met! I am a damn good artist and this guy blows me away!)
Scott <>
USA - Friday, September 25, 1998 at 08:35:46 (EDT) 

I know the "Pain" I also have two missing disc's with a steel plate in my neck and it makes laying prone a real bear if I have to do it for very long. I will get bad head aches and my vision will start to blur over any prolonged period.I thought I was going to have to give up coyote hunting until an old trapper showed me the sticks and tought me how to use them. With a ghillie suit made for sitting and the sticks I've done even better than when I was hunting prone. Did you have any trouble with recoil?? I was recoil sensitive for several years. If I shot to much I would get sore and get the head aches. It's just been the last year or so that I haven't been botherd by recoil.

Sorry, it wasn't a Howa or I would have owned it, it was right out of a WW-2 movie, and its gone!! Someone bought it!! It probably would have out shot my REM and your SAVAGE.(HA) Gooch probably missed out on a real find.
Pat <>
USA - Friday, September 25, 1998 at 09:55:49 (EDT) 

Rifle Cammo:

Rod did an outstanding job on my .300WM while at SMTC. It really looks great...Scott is right, the guy can really paint a rifle. That seems to be one way to do the job. There were some rifles that had a form of ghillie on them. that method seemed to be effective also. I like the paint because there is less to get snagged on brush during the final phase of your stalk. Remember to paint the inside of your front scope cap also. I got off my first shot at the observer, but got busted when he started scanning my area. What did he see? My big round shiney black Butler Creek scope cap. Of course I may have stalked a little too close also. It does'nt matter if it's flipped up or to one really stands out under obsevation by optics. Worse than the end of a barrel. alittle cammo paint on the inside will solve that problem.

I liked the tomatoe stakes also..Scott, Bob and I could not find any when we went to Wal-Mart, and I still cannot locate any here...Still looking. In Florida, prone shooting can be a problem due to all of the very jungle like undergrowth. The shooting sticks are the way to go.

Scott is right about wind...that was probably the hardest thing to get right...but we also shot through some incredible winds while at SMTC. I thought hurricane Earl had followed me up to W. VA.
P.C., FL. USA - Friday, September 25, 1998 at 10:27:49 (EDT) 

Wind! Cory is not tellign the whole story! The first week saw wind gusting to 40+ MPH with an average speed hovering around 15-20. Long shots were, well, problematic!

Gooch, or Rick, what kind of material do you instruct your students to utilize when trying to break up the outline of a rifle? Paint is effective to a point, particularly when the shot is 300+ yards on out, but during stalk excersizes I found that a good observer could easily pick out a camo'd rifle. I am always reluctant to hang stuff on my rifle and rely on a veil drapped over the scope. But this is not always effective as the muzzle, even painted, looks like a washer to the observer. How effective would it be to paint the muzzle diagonally in two colors to break up the circular signature?

I have seen a fair amount of rifle ghillies but most required you to drap them across the barrel, something I'd rather avoid. Some even wedged between the scope objective and the barrel! errrrr...
Scott <>
USA - Friday, September 25, 1998 at 12:24:10 (EDT) 

I have never tried sneaking up on someone so I don't know how effective this would be against a human target but works great for predators with sharp eyes looking for anything out of the ordinary. I took a piece of burlap and made a "sock" to slip over the gun up to the scope and secure it with several rubberbands it gets frayed with use and breaks up the outline quite well. We spray paint the rest of the gun and scope with removable bow paint. One of the guys I hunt with uses a vet wrap for horses, it sticks to its self not the gun. Comes in several colors and white works great for winter snow plus its easy to take off or change. None of these methods effect the point of impact either.
Pat <>
USA - Friday, September 25, 1998 at 12:52:30 (EDT) 
Never have been bothered by the recoil just unable to sustain holding my head up to shoot prone.

Rifle Camo

At 300 plus the veil with a non reflective rifle finish works fine at 300 minus you have lost ballistic advantage and most infantry personnel can do the job and need for a sniper has a least been greatly reduced.

Dave in Ok
Dave Martin <>
Ok USA - Friday, September 25, 1998 at 15:01:10 (EDT) 

Dave: I agree, there is little point in employing a sniper under 400 yards unless to repell an attack. Law enforcement of course has different goals and 70 yards is the norm. The question I pose comes from having to stalk to within 200 yards or less (sometimes a lot less depending on terrian) on a designated observer. This is typical of most military styled sniper schools. To test your field craft you have to stalk unrealistically close to the instructor/observer. You fire a round (blank) and he searches the area for you. If he can not see you, a walker moves in your general direction and so forth and so on until the observer/instructor has a pin point location on you. If he still can not see you, you take a second shot. The idea here is, as stated above, that if you can do this up close and personal, you should therefore be able to do it from afar. Getting this close can really tax your camouflage as a ghillie does not make you invisible. As well, through a bino or a scope it is easy to pick out the disk of the snipers scope or the muzzle of the rifle, as well as muzzle flash and dust being kicked up by the blast. So I suppose me question is more geared toward how to "fool" the observer. You'd not catch to many of us in an open field 150 yards from a platoon of AK equiped troops, looking for a fight! Can you spell death wish?

Still, if you can effectively break up the outline of the gear, it is worth it. Regardless of your actual distance. I would imaging LE needs to seriously consider this as being seen by a perp is bound to escilate a situation to a boiling point!

Speaking of prone shooting, if anyone has a problem with it, they will not like tactical shooting. You might lay in that position for hours or days. And yeah, it hurts!
Scott <>
USA - Friday, September 25, 1998 at 15:32:52 (EDT) 

Allright! Fieldcraft shit!! SHootings fun, but if you can't get there you can't shoot or you end up compromised and end up a dumb dead sniper!!!

Cammying up gear - Remember, besides the rifle we are also talking about observer optics, back up weapons, firing support etc.

There are many ways of doing this. First you have to remember what the eye picks up on. Two of the killers here are shine and outline. Shine is pretty easy to subdue with flat spray paint and the like. As you stay in this occupation over the years you try different techniques. Don't get in one mindset. Recently I have gone to the following technique. I start off with bowflage tape and tape everything except the barrel. When taping don't put it on smoothly, rather intentionaly make it a wrinkled mess. This will help to cut down smooth surfaces and reflection. I then take 60 grit sand paper and sand the tape giving it a fuzzy surface. For the barrel I stick to paint as I'm paranoid about screwing with barrel harmonics. A good paint to use is this "granite" paint I found at the Home Center. It has a zillion little beads in it that, after drying, leaves a rough, absolutely reflection free surface. Seal the granite paint with a satin clear coat, then paint to desired color. This painting technique works well with bino's, firing supports etc. It wears off after awhile but, hey, blow a couple of hundred dollars on a Birdsong teflon finish instead!

In order to cut reflection down off of optics, use scope shades first, then kill flash lens covers or strech a nylon stocking over the objective lens. When using scope shades you can line them with light colored burlap (wrinkled again) to cut down on the black hole effect that a trained observer can pick up on. In high light conditions such as sand or snow you can tape over the lens shade and cut a small opening in it. THis will still allow enough light to enter, but cut down on shine. Gauze also works well in this manner.

In firing position drape your head veil over the weapon up to a point just past the scope. This covers up bolt manipulation, loading etc.

Back to rifle supports. A lot of our guys like using light weight camera tripods. The quick release tripod head adapter is modified to support the rifle in a number of ways. My favorite is to make a saddle out of a piece of pvc pipe cut in half along its length then screwed onto the tripod head. The pvc saddle is then painted and lined with indoor/outdoor carpet to give a non-skid surface. You can then use the tripod to shoot off of or get other tripod heads for attachment to cameras, spotting scoes, lazer range finders etc.

The tripod is handiest when firing from sitting and higher positions. We mostly use either a Harris bipod or Rucksack/asspack for the prone.

As far as snipers not being needed under 300 yards....sure as shit as soon as you make a catagorical statement there is an exception. Not to go into a tirade here or anything but there are plenty of exceptions such as internal security operations, VIP protection, urban warfare, "peace keeping" missions, etc where shots may be taken under 300yds/m. Is it risky, dangerous etc? Sure it is, but it's your job. (Heard a good story about Marines using a Barret at 400yds vs "soft" targets in Africa. Is that doctrine? Nope, but it made for a good show I hear.)

Joe from SA - (I'll email this also) Can .308 shoot at 1000 yds? Can a AT-1 .308 hit at 1000 yds? Ask the thousands of NRA shooters that shoot 1000yd matches with .308s if they hit! First - The .308 projectile is ballisticly (?) capable of shooting further than 1000 yds/m at better than 1 minute of angle(moa)(10" at 1000 yds). Second - Armament Technology rifles are not released unless they shoot at least .5 moa (atleast 5" at 1000 yds). Third - Long distance accuracy is a co-function of shooter ability, weapons system (rifle, sights and ammunition) and enviromental conditions.

Get a good weapon system (Armament Tech rifle, Leupold scope and Norma or Winchester ammo)and go to Storm Mountain, USA to learn to shoot it! (Am I kissing ass here or what?!)

Oh well, I'm off to look for another monkey to try Spider Man's new technique on. Hey Spidey, You never said what kind of monkey. I tried it with an Orangatang (?)(you know, "Left turn Clyde!" An Orangatang! Whatever!) Anyway, the big Orange mutherf$^#%@ whooped my butt!! I'm going to try one of those little spyder monkey things next. THe Little Rock zoo, the ASPCA and PETA weren't real happy about the whole thing either.

Mr Bain, I might need some help here and the SC Councel might be getting a phone call from CNN regarding this incident. Sorry, but the big Orange thing had me in a full nelson and the zoo keepers woudln't help me until I told them where I got the idea from. TO add insult, the big orange thing fell in love with the ghillie and has taken it into its den and won't come out.

Gooch out.
gooch <>
Sherwood, AR USA - Friday, September 25, 1998 at 17:32:07 (EDT) 

To Joe: 1000 yard rifles.
I think that any rifle that shoots nice tight groups with a bullet that has a ballistic coefficient of around .500 or better and a muzzle velocity of 2600 f.p.s. or better has the potential to be a decent 1000 yard rifle no matter what it is chambered for. But once you own such a rifle you are only half way there. The next step is to buy a cronograph and do a lot of load testing to find a handload that produces as little deviation in velocity as possible. This is just as important as having a rifle that shoots nice sub m.o.a. groups. A rifle that shoots nice tight groups at say, 200 yards but has a velocity spread of 100 f.p.s is not going to make a good 1000 yard rifle. The commonly used term for measuring velocity deviaton is called Standard Deviation. Once you have a load that meets the above criteria, as well as having a Standard Deviation of 12 fps or less you are good to go.

To Scott: fooling the observer
I am being serious here, have you ever considered cheating a little. use of smoke, firecrackers to simulate muzzle flash, tying a long string to a bush to make a decoy, special blank cartridges that only contain a primer, (no powder,) or a hundred other devious little tricks to get you past that last critical test. The observer only gets the one last chance to catch you. It would seem to me that anything that wasn't specifically against the rules is O.K. Or have I been morally corupted by the guy in the white house?
Steve <>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Friday, September 25, 1998 at 18:14:07 (EDT) 

Hey, this rifle camoflauge topic is very interesting stuff.

Patt:GREAT ideas !The vet rap and bow paint would certainly be very flexible in letting the shooter adapt the camoflauge to their specific environment(s) with minimal down time for the rifle to be outfitted as required.

I'm personally more interested in this type of versatility as opposed to having a weaopon almost to the point of being permanently altered by using non- removable paints and other such means.

Heck,even hockey stick tape (white or black in colour) could be used as well.
Jeff B. <>
Truro, N.S. Canada - Friday, September 25, 1998 at 19:33:16 (EDT) 

WOW FIELDCRAFT!!!! Again on the cross sticks, I like the fishpole antenna because they are sectional and collapse to about 13-14 inches and can be carried very easily and yet can be extended to any height the maker wants to contruct the little begger. If you can't find the fishpole antennas then the sectional tent poles that are hollow so that you can pass the thin bungee through works just as well. Camo for them is as easy as paint, burlap, and elastic bands to add grass and our branches for camo.

Weapon Camo - Paint works well to a certain extent. When using paint, don't paint the weapon as if it were a deck chair. Frost the paint on so that you will get varying hues from a single paint, it also allows for a flater appearence. Once you ahve finished "frosting" on the paint, go over it with flat clear coat. Burlap extended just past the muzzle allows break up of the muzzle, however, the percursory collumn of air, that forms the initial muzzle blast, will move it out of the way allowing the bullet to pass unmolested. Wrap the barrle loosely with burlap to within 1 inch of the forstock, if you wish to use burlap, DO NOT capture barrel and forestock as you will destroy barrel harmonics. Add loops on the burlap for adding short pieces of foliage. And I do mean short, 2 inches average with a spread of 1 to 3 inches. This combination doesn't seem to interfer with barrel harmonics for us but you must experiment with the combinations prior to using in a must shoot situation. The advantage of burlap over paint is ease of changing colors for the terrain or season. Use the same techniques as finding best torque, load, etc. On the optics, we cut odd shaped openings in a plastic disc and trap it inside the Butler Creek Cap. Add burlap stings over the front or go with the draped veil (my personal favorite).

On the stalk to 200 meters of an observer - The reason seems to have been lost with time. The reason is because an objective deploys OP/LPs and you must stalk to within shoot range. Ideally (for the defender) an OP is placed 150 to 200 meters from the perimeter and your objective may be 100 meters inside the perimeter. Thus when added your stalk to with 200 meters of the Observer (OP) is just to get within 400 to 500 meters of your target.

D. West - Got your letter today and I thank you kindly for your contribution! If you have any other questions, please ask. As far as LEA training, since Waco and Ruby Ridge we have been severly resrticted in what we can do with the LEA community. I have had to give up contracts completely as they conflict with our directives on LEA training. You may wish to address USSOCOM with a request for training support. They can give you guidelines and are the only approving authority for us to train LEA.

Well guys guess I'll crash. This has been a very long week. Our students HAD the highest class average we have ever seen until the Field Shoot Exam. They seemed to fall apart! We lost 8 of 23 students to the field shoot exam. I do dearly hate losing students in this course. They don't fail, we fail!

Hold hard guys!

Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Friday, September 25, 1998 at 21:33:14 (EDT) 

RE: 1000 yds with AT-1 M-24
Thanks to all the guys who posted some advice on this!
(Gooch, Rick, Steve and anyone else I missed)
I feel VERY VERY dumb asking these questions, but there is a saying in my language "Piano, Piano, con la pazienza e la vaselina, l'elefante incula la formica" (I dunno how many ITs there are here, but it has to do with patience, vaseline, elephants and ants...)
Thank you all for the information you posted/e-mailed me. Each "old bit of news" for you is a NEW bit of info for me. I've recently made contact with SOmchem here who test rifles, produce powder etc. and I hope some more education will come of that.

Please feel free to throw any advice my way. Requested or otherwise. Eventually I will be able to discern for myself what works for me, what is true and what is myth, but I can only do this by sifting through a lot of info. At least, that's my preferred method.

I just learnt that I probably have already made a mistake, I bought a multi-stage Lee reloading kit not too long ago....oh well...Guess it will be relegated to reloading cheap handgun ammo....If (when) I get my paws on an M-24 I will do the right thing and buy a few single stage sets and weld them molecularly to a solid (but adjustable) horizontal block of concrete :)

Next Question: Since it seems to me that the fitting of a case (with bullet in place of course) inside the rifle just prior to firing it is the most important component of accuracy (after user error and concentricity) I was under the impression that a sniper rifle would in all likelyhood end up shooting only one type of ammo. Is this wrong, wrong, wrong, or just a bit wrong?

Thanks again.
 Joe <>
Cape Town, SA - Friday, September 25, 1998 at 21:38:17 (EDT) 


Were getting crucified on ths site!

Scott:The spider you describe was probably a black and yellow Argiope (non poisonous) The brown recluse also
goes by the name of violin spider or fiddleback.

Uncle Nunzio's Newphew <>
New Yawk USA - Friday, September 25, 1998 at 21:52:25 (EDT) 

Does anyone have any ideas for an URBAN ghillie? When I was a boy, I saw a picture of a WWII Brit soldier wearing a ghillie that was supposedly made for fighting in towns, during the Italian campaign I think (?).
What would be some things to consider? Colors would be primarily grey, brick red, maybe black, but what about physically breaking up the sniper's outline? Do they use anything like this in the Balkans, perhaps?
Maybe some of the LE or SO types can shed some light on this.
Grenadier <>
Firebase Bandit, USA - Friday, September 25, 1998 at 22:06:45 (EDT) 
RICK IS THE MAN!!!! You were right old boy. The reason to getting within 200 for the stalk has been lost with time. I had heard that eons ago but...You are the man! Hey guys is he the man or what!?

On the deception of the OP using diversionary devices. Looks good in the movies guys but in real life. The idea is to not let the bad guys know you are in the area, PERIOD! Can you spell "artillery fire" or "search teams" or "release the hounds"? If the enemy knows you are in the AO you're screwed. About the only time this might be used is during counter-sniper ops when you are trying to get the other guy to fire so you can locate him. Zaitsev did somethings similiar to Konings at Stalingrad during WWII (the old glove then helmet on a stick trick).

Joe - Ain't no stupid questions here man. Ask away. If someone doesn't know the answer, we'll make something up.

Urban cammo - Deception is your best bet in urban ops. Unless the AO is deserted, disguises and deceit will work the best when moving into or out of position. Urban sniping is also an area that we need to tread lightly with. Certain federal agencies get uptight (and rightly so) when people start talking about sniping in urban areas. A lot of this stuff can be translated into hunting skills and the like but not how to remain concealed in book depositories! Call me overly sensitive but I would prefer that my phone remains untapped! We ain't talking about rebuilding carburators here.

D West. You must have been talking to SOTIC re: LE training. All of the Active duty sniper schools have been told to back off of LE training. The National Guard is not in the same situation. We train LE snipers on a regular basis. Same basic program on a 2 week schedule. Email me for more info.

Auf Wiedersehen

gooch <>
Sherwood, AR USA - Friday, September 25, 1998 at 22:50:10 (EDT) 

Re: Rifle / Barrel camo. For those who have made a ghillie suit and had "TONS" of those strands of burlap you pulled....ever wondered what to do with them?? Take some adhesive spray and spray the barrel and then sprinkle the strands over the barrel !! Makes use of something you normally throw away....also good on the field boots.Breaks outline great and so far hasn't affected the accuracy.
Just an idea. OUT HERE
Will <>
Deep South on high ground !!, USA - Friday, September 25, 1998 at 23:16:53 (EDT) 
Kodiak, contact me off-line. I have a friend who can ship a new Musgrave to your friendly FFL holder. No prices on SC, but worth the effort for a truly competitive Palma-type single shot action. As a point of confidence, very few Canadian Bisley style (ie Palma) shooters are competitive with anything but a Musgrave.

Terry Warner <>
Canada - Friday, September 25, 1998 at 23:35:15 (EDT) 

Gooch: Thanks for the honesty :)
Hopefully I'll soon be able to tell when I'm being lied, lied, lied to as opposed to just a little bit lied to
Joe <>
Cape Town, SA - Friday, September 25, 1998 at 23:43:10 (EDT) 
To all.
Can one of you tell me about E.A.W. mounts? I have seen them mentioned from time to time. Both times they are used on Mauser K-98 actions. The last time as a short side rail mount.
MJ <>
Ca. USA - Saturday, September 26, 1998 at 00:11:00 (EDT) 

Does anyone have some pet loads for a bolt action .223 that they would share with me. I found a couple great loads already. I know that load development is part of the fun of shooting but there is so much testing yet to do and I don't have as much free time as I used to. I am especially interested in V V powders for the .223 as I have only used them in .308 so far.
Any help will really be appreciated.
Thanks !!!
USA - Saturday, September 26, 1998 at 01:52:40 (EDT) 
To Terry Warner:
Terry, I just sent you an e-mail but it might not have gone through to you. My computer is acting up a little lately. If you didn't get my e-mail let me know and I'll try again.
USA - Saturday, September 26, 1998 at 02:07:19 (EDT) 

E-mail me with your phone number and I'll give you info on my faverate .223 bolt gun loads.

Stay Safe!
Depity Dave <>
Ready for fall (hunting seasion) in, Beautiful West Virginia USA - Saturday, September 26, 1998 at 09:29:51 (EDT) 


E-mail me with your phone number and I'll give you info on my faverate .223 bolt gun loads.

Stay Safe!
Depity Dave <>
Still ready for fall (hunting seasion) in, Beautiful West Virginia USA - Saturday, September 26, 1998 at 09:34:22 (EDT) 

RE: Field rests and rifle camo:

Field rests for seated shooting are two tripods made from 36" X 5/8" wooden dowels. The dowels in each tripod are connected with a rubber bungee tiedown wrapped around the dowel bundle and hooked together at the "s" hooks. This makes for a tight tripod, but still allows the legs to be slid up and down to change elevation. The second tripod is used as a shooter rest. I lean back on the second tripod and lock my right elbow in TIGHT over one leg to get a really solid rest. Legs are painted and garnished.

Rifle camo is piece of camo net with garnish. It is light, effective, and does not interfere with rifle operation.
USA - Saturday, September 26, 1998 at 10:46:48 (EDT) 

RE: Dowel rod tripods:

I forgot to mention that about 10-12" from the bottom of each leg I attached a loop which I strung a connecting cord through so the legs of the tripod do not splay out when I put weight on the rest.
USA - Saturday, September 26, 1998 at 10:49:51 (EDT) 

All: Has anybody had any experiance with the "Carson lens pen" in cleaning scopes? I was given two, new in the box, and I like the way they look but it states, "to be used on cameras and binoculars only". That statement makes me wonder about using it on scopes.

Out here
Gramps <>
USA - Saturday, September 26, 1998 at 12:31:56 (EDT) 

CAMBRAI, FRANCE - Saturday, September 26, 1998 at 14:10:42 (EDT) 
To Jack, re. EAW scopemounts.

EAW is Germany's and Europe's largest mountmaker. Their range is very large, much larger than Leupolds.

Their standard mount is a QD-mount similar to Leupold STD but with a QD mechanism in the rear base. The front base is adjustable for wear. Rings in several heights. The high rings has elevationadjustment. An interesting variation is the frontring that goes on the objectivebell on the scope with the front base mounted extreme forward, usually on the barrel. The extended distance between the bases make QD-mounts more accurate. No front overhang on the scope makes it less vulnerable when bumping into things.

EAW makes the classic german 4-clawmounts for rifles, doublerifles, drillings,etc. VERY expensive.

Then they make the classic siderailmount for M98K as seen on WW2 sniperrifles. This mount is very good with exellent QD-performance. All steel with W&E-adjustments, 26mm/1" or 30mm rings. Use a relatively short and leight scope to avoid vibrations. They also make this mount with a base for the M1 Carabine. With the scope in a hard case and a standard M98K you can go to hell and return with a zeroed rifle. Open sights are ready for use all the time.

Get the EAW catalog. It's a lot of reading.

Oslo, Norway - Saturday, September 26, 1998 at 17:14:15 (EDT) 


Good point on the Fed types getting upset. I remember a time when knowledge for knowledges sake wasnt considered subversive. I have always been interested in SpecOps, and I wonder if they have any (unclassified) tricks they use in Urban ops, but I guess "Big Nanny" might think I will "shoot my eye out" or something. Arrgh.
Grenadier <>
Firebase Bandit, USA - Saturday, September 26, 1998 at 20:04:13 (EDT) 

I picked up my Mark 4 mounts and rings today, I'm a bit dissapointed. All parts are cast and not finnish machined. The bore in the rings is rough as a cob, when I was making shavings for a living I would have never given a customer something this rough. When I clamp the rings to the mounts I can look along the mount and see a gap because the angle of the dovetail is not the same on both pieces. There seems to be quite a bit of play between the cross bolt in the ring and the slot in the base. All in all I expected quite a bit more from Leupold. My question is, am I worried about nothing or should I look into another mount system? What I expected for $200 is all nice smooth fully machined 4130 parts with very tight tolerances, maybe that's a pipe dream? I would apprecieate what any of you have to say.
Rich <>
WA USA - Saturday, September 26, 1998 at 21:24:04 (EDT) 
on field rests.
I have used breakdown aluminum tentpoles, and a piece of pvc material with two holes that i stick the poles thru and let the rifle rest on the pvc material witch also holds them together.
They also come in handy when erecting a quick short term hide.
And to all those who answered my previus post on 6mm/284 brass,,,got the problem fixed as I have gotten my hands on almost 300 rounds of brass,
but thanks for the quick response.
The kindness of other people always gets me by surprise:)

straight shooting!
Haraldur Gustafsson <>
Egilsst., Iceland - Saturday, September 26, 1998 at 22:07:54 (EDT) 

This is like the 3rd time that someone on this site has had complaints about the Leupold Mk 4 mounts. Does anyone know who they subcontract out to for these things? If I was one of you guys that have gotten these things I would be calling Leupold and raising a big stink.

Number for Leupold is (503)646-9171 or (503)526-1400.

Short post this time eh? Maybe I'll double post just to piss off Russ.


Gooch out.
gooch <>
Sherwood, AR USA - Saturday, September 26, 1998 at 22:41:07 (EDT) 

To Grenadier: Urban Ghillies
I dont know if it is classified or not but if you go to Detroit and you see something that looks like it crawled out of a dumpster slithering around, I'd give it a wide berth. I hear McDonald hamburger wrappers are the current fashion up there.
To Rick: failure rate. I know you didn't ask me for my opinion but I'm going to give one anyway. You guys are too good. There are observers and then there are OBSERVERS. I think you guys are stacking the deck too far against the students. You take a guy that earns his living by knowing what to look for and where and when to look for, he is going to be much better at it than your average joe. Some of the students that passed were probably very good, and others that passed may have been a little lucky.

Steve <>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Saturday, September 26, 1998 at 23:09:55 (EDT) 

Does anyone know of any good ranges int the St. Louis area ??? Thanks in advance ...
Sam Cushway III <>
Michigan City, IN 46360USA - Sunday, September 27, 1998 at 00:32:46 (EDT) 
Steve - I understand your concern, however that was not the exercise that ate their lunch. The Field shoot exam consists of five man sized targets placed anywhere from 400 meters to 800 meters from the shooting point. The student sniper team comes onto the line and one shoots while the other spots. They must score a 70% overall to pass. The targets are graded as 1st round hit, second round hit, or miss. Once the team has finished those five they move to the next five and switch roles. The scores are combined for a team score. If they fail to achieve 70% then they are retrained and retested with either their same partners are a new partner that has passed the test. This prevents one partner from dumping on another partner. What caught our students on the test was nerves and letting the sound of the wind coming through the trees stress them out. The wind was about 4 - 5 mph from 5 o'clock and fishtailing to 9 o'clock with speeds of 6 - 9 mph. They had fired in those conditions before. One team read winds from the moa chart and called in Mils. So the 3 moa left became "Left 3 Mils". That is a sure miss. Had they called "Left a light mil", then they would have gotten a first round hit. Stress, attention to detail, and other little bites got them in trouble.

The stalking scenerio is what you described and we take great pains to insure fairness in that exercise. We observe in the same manner in which an OP would observe. We only use 7x binos, and the oberver gets one whack at the student. If when he says "Sniper at your feet" and there is not a sniper within touching distance than the walker moves off. If the observer sees an indication of a sniper, but does not feel that it would attract the eye of a normal observer, then he will walk a walker into the area and warn the student of what he has seen and told to adjust his movement and area accordingly. Blatant activity is, of course, rewarded with the coveted long walk to the truck. We use five graded stalks and none of them are must pass. This prevents just what you described. We also change the observers with each stalk, and stalk lanes are never repeated to prevent the observer from "learning" all the good spots. Another little control measure is the ragging we give instructors when they miss and call a walker into a dry hole. We will not tolerate "guessing" or "hunting".

Sorry this got so long. And Steve, I didn't take your statement as a challenge or anything else. I just wanted to clear up the exercise and how we run it. Have fun guys, we go in for the FTX Monday, if the AF C130 ever gets out of Little Rock! Gooch, what did you do to them?

Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Sunday, September 27, 1998 at 00:37:26 (EDT) 

O.K. It's time for Stupid question by D.West

D. West <>
I hate , Chicago!!! USA - Sunday, September 27, 1998 at 00:46:45 (EDT) 

What is best to make a ghillie suit out of? BDU's or flight jump suit? Also when constructing a log book, what is essential that it must contain? And is this right? When slope doping, it does NOT matter what range your scope is set at. I got this out of Plaster's ULTIMATE SNIPER, but want to make sure that this is right before making charts.

D. West
USA - Sunday, September 27, 1998 at 00:53:23 (EDT) 

anyone know anything about the MWG rings and bases? how about G.G.&G.? thanks
Rich <>
WA USA - Sunday, September 27, 1998 at 01:04:05 (EDT) 
Kodiak; As far as pet loads for a .223 go, I had best results with sierra's 69 gr. bthp Matchkings out of... Dammit, I've got it here somewhere. Well, try starting with the sierra cookbook's accuracy load for IMR 3031. These bullets only perform in fast twist barrels. I tried them in a 1-in-8 Rem. 700 and was very pleased. If you have a slower barrel, try the 52 gr. bthp's. I have a 220 swift that absolutely loves them. ( 1-in-14 twist) Best of luck. I know this isn't quite the answer you were after, but I hope I've helped.
J. Liles <>
Portland , Or. USA - Sunday, September 27, 1998 at 12:56:19 (EDT) 
To J. Liles:
Thanks for the info, all help is appreciated.
USA - Sunday, September 27, 1998 at 13:09:13 (EDT) 
Has there been much information on this site regarding winter sniper operations?

Weapon performance, human performance, sneaking, hiding, covering backtrails, living conditions, etc, all take on very different characteristics when things are cold and white. How 'bout it, mountaineers?
USA - Sunday, September 27, 1998 at 13:16:14 (EDT) 

Rick, C-130's?! What kind of a budget you guys got down there? We were lucky if we got Hueys!

D West. If Plasters book says what you said it says, burn it. WHen shooting at angles you need the map distance not straight line distance. In otherwords, Imagine you the shooter being in a high rise building and the target is sitting on a park bench at street level. You use a laser range finder from your pos and determin that he is 220 yards away at a angle of 35 degrees slant. By using a calculator (Line of sight distance x cosine of firing angle) or using a mildot master (from mildot enterprises) you determine that the correct distance to put on the scope is 180 yds.

Shooting up or down, you will always hit high if you don't correct for slope.

I collaborated on a book called "The Military and Police Sniper" with Mike Lau of Texas Brigade Armory which has a good explaination of this. You can get the book through Tactical Shooter or Precision Shooter magazine.

Ghillie suits are best made using a two piece uniform.

Once again, on this site there is no such thing as a stupid question, just stupid answers. No Wait!! That didn't come out right! No such thing as stupid questions, just anal retentive answers. That's better.

Gooch out.

gooch <>
Sherwood, Ar USA - Sunday, September 27, 1998 at 14:57:08 (EDT) 

To TorF
Thanks also could you tell me how to find them? Is there a web site? I need a way to contact them or a distributor of the EAW line in the US.
USA - Sunday, September 27, 1998 at 17:38:56 (EDT) 
Sarge, with a great look of disgust on his face, looks from his hide and PLEADS:

HELP, I'm still looking for some assistence with a .30-06 that I can't get to stay inside 2-3" at 100yds!! OK here is the data: Savage 111 (no remarks PLEASE!) with a Simmons 3x9 Prohunter scope. Weaver bases, Savage rings (hey they came with the gun). Now here is what I've done and or checked: All the base and ring screws are tight, the action and trigger housing screws are tight. The barrel is not touching the stock. The scope was bore sighted prior to all this insanity. Bullet data: Sierra 165 GameKings with different loads of N-140 and IMR 4350. Today factory Winchester both the Supreme 150's (the Nosler Ballistic tip) and Winchester Fail Safe 165's. Rounds show no sign of over pressure, bolt closes on a round nice and easy, extraction is right on. I'm about at what's left of my patience!! HELP!!!! What have I forgotten, what haven't I checked, WHAT IN THE HELL IS WRONG!! (and no cracks about it being, a Savage, PLEASE!!)
Oh, and remember, I DON'T HAVE A LOCAL GUNSMITH!!!

Sarge ducks back into his hide and prays someone has an idea what the problem can be!!
Sarge <>
Area 51, NM USA - Sunday, September 27, 1998 at 17:48:51 (EDT) 

Sarge - Have you checked for parallax? I had the same problem when I went through the FBI Observer-Sniper Course with an M40A1. My Unertl was focused at 300 and we were shooting at closer than 100 yds. Couldn't get a group until I refocused.

For those of you who don't know how to do this. Rest the rifle on a solid platform about 100 yds from a defined tgt. Adjust the rifle so the crosshairs rest on tgt without you touching it. Look through the scope without touching the rifle and move your head slightly. The reticle shouldn't move in relation to tgt. If it does, ensure that the reticle is focused and then if the scope has a adjustable objective make sure the target is in focus. Recheck. If the reticle still moves in relation to the tgt and you can't focus it out it probably needs to go to the factory. Parallax will cause a larger group becuase it is very hard for the shooter to exactly center the eye behind the exit pupil in the same place every time. If parallax is present you will find it hard to get the same "sight alignment" for each shot causing your shots to wander.

How does your muzzle crown look? Free of nicks and dents?

Good luck old boy.

Gooch out.

gooch <>
Sherwood, AR USA - Sunday, September 27, 1998 at 20:13:18 (EDT) 

WTF? Over.

Good to see some of you slack-jawed ------s in Vegas this last week. Some of the boys from Pendleton, Col. Brown, Gens. Singlaub and Tibbetts, Torsten, Pat L., Bob H., Armalite, Armament Technology, Custom Concealment, Inc., GSGI, and Storm Mountain Training Center were at the convention. (Who were those people working the booth with Rod Ryan?) Ryan had some great display photos from LeMay. (Outstanding!) Hey, even R.O. "Dick" and Gloria Culver made it to the convention! (Marius: Dick hasn't forgotten that he owes you some books! E-mail me offline.) Otherwise, the convention sucked.

Gooch: Were you in the G-Suit when the Orangutan fell in love?

Bain out.

Mr. Bain <>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Sunday, September 27, 1998 at 20:26:43 (EDT) 

To Jack, re. EAW.

I think their US address is listed in Gun Digest.

A correction on the highring-elevation. The front ring pivots, elevation idone by different rear-(high)ring heights. No need for shimming, milling on bases,etc.

Oslo, Norway - Monday, September 28, 1998 at 08:14:23 (EDT) 

Gooch Gooch Gooch, you po' misguided man! When I said "kill" a monkey, I was using a New Yawk code for the term "Spank". You didn't actually have to go out and beat the living snot outta some poor unsuspecting Orang...Although now that you have gotten over the introductions, I am sure you can keep the romance going with a weekly gift of fruit.

Some of our fellow sniper students, those of, shall we say, ill repute (don't ALL New Yawkers fit this description?) took a shine to a certain waitress and everytime she walked by, one or the other would say "Man, I got to go kill a monkey." So when I say they "Killed" a monkey on my ghillie, it meant the sick b*stards KNEW it in a biblical sense...which reminds me, where is that bottle of disinfectant?

Steve: Speaking of cheating...I do belive we think alike. But if you do it in such a manner that the observers can oin point your local, you lose. I prefer to wait till someone else shoots and then drop a round just as the Observer looks away.
SMTC Alumni; Who was the KING of the KIMs game? Me. Why? Because I Cheated better than every friggin one of you, thats WHY!!!
Scott <>
USA - Monday, September 28, 1998 at 09:43:09 (EDT) 

Bain thats great that the photos work for Rod. Did you see any cool new stuff for sale I need for my bag? What about the chicks too? Got a new 92 FS this weekend it works OK but it does need some work on it. I think that Cory wants us to come down south and show him how well our gas guns work before he gets that old bolt rifle. LeMay OUT
LeMay <>
Dewitt, USA - Monday, September 28, 1998 at 09:44:34 (EDT) 
To all of you who have issues with the Mk4 mount, give Armament Technology a call. They have a similiar but arguably stronger mount and ring set. The rings are finished to a high degree of precision. I received this set several weeks ago and when held side by side with the Mk4, the difference in quality is glaring. For example, I make a habbit of lapping in any ring set I install. But when I laid the scope into the AT ring set, I found that, when combined with their mount, my scope was at nearly 100 percent contact. I can not over stress the level of high quality machined into this mounting system.

Basso, are you out there? I would like you to comment on the Chandler rifle and scope mount system also. I have no experience with either, but from your surprisingly outstanding performance (fer a New Yawker) I'd would say our fellow readers would like to hear more on this one too.
Scott <>
USA - Monday, September 28, 1998 at 10:03:16 (EDT) 

If you have another scope I would try it. One off of a gun that you know shoots well. Trying to run down problems like that can be like a dog chasing its tail. You need to eliminate all the other variable's befor you blame the gun.
Make sure your action screws are tight also.

Great insight on the camo!! Now I see why you guys make the big bucks(HA)

In my new Varmint Hunter magazine there is a great article on how to accurize a savage and a new trigger that is being made for them. If your interested let me know and I'll send you a copy.
Pat <>
USA - Monday, September 28, 1998 at 10:03:49 (EDT) 

Joe: I don't want this to start sounding like a commercial for Armament Technology, but since you asked: If you are shooting any rifle sharing the same quality and control as the AT1-M24, you will not need to handload for it at all, other than for fun, or monitary savings. When I wrote the article on that rifle, the only ammunition used was the Federal Gold Medal, 168 grain HPBT. On the calmer days, you could actually get head shots at 896 yards with this factory ammo. Granted, you'd not try this in real life, but it was neat to see all the same! In short, the .308 is a darn fine 1000 yard cartridge, even in factory ammo, as long as the rifle is up to snuff. This is a darn good thing as no operational sniper in the real world will ever be using handloads specially tuned for his rig. At best, he might be able to sort through various LOTs to see which perform better, but in combat I doubt he even has that luxury! Once a given load is chosen by the service, he is pretty much stuck with it. To summerize, the .308 is just peachy keen.

We discuss handloading a lot on this site, as so many of us are interested in it and it is a way to make an otherwise so-so or fairly good rifle shoot well. But a true test of any rifle intended for tactical use is to shoot the various factory match loads through it in all conditions. If it can not perform with at least one of them, it simply is not qualified to be considered a true tactical rifle. Yeah, I know, that sounds opinionated as hell, but it is still true. No police officer in his right mind would use a handload (major legal issues!) and military shooters never have that option outside of competition. A lot of debates held here center on factory rifles shooting handloaded ammo. The touted results becomes a function of how well you develop your ammo. But a more accurate method of comparison would be to limit the cartridge options to those loads actually utilized by real world tactical shooters. This can be an eye opener. Surprisingly, you may find your rifle shoots BETTER with factory than with your best handload, or conversly you might discover you own a sows ear!

Sorry this was so long but I just can not let Gooch and Rick have all the fun!

Scott <>
USA - Monday, September 28, 1998 at 10:19:15 (EDT) 

Scott who has a good price on the Federal Gold Match 168 or 175 HPBT. I need to get a case till I get a good load worked up for my gas gun. LeMay OUT
LeMay <>
dewitt, USA - Monday, September 28, 1998 at 10:27:33 (EDT) 
I'am in the process of making a ghillie suit for "Stalking" and was wondering if I need to put canvas on the knees and on the front of the jacket?? I put padding in the knees and in the elbows but I've heard both pro and con on putting the heavy material on the front. Some say its not necessary and makes the suit harder to roll up and that you dont crawl that far to wear out the double padding anyway. If I have to use canvas would an old sea bag work and what is the best way to put it on?? How much color variation should I put into the suit?? I hunt prarrie so my hunting suit is pretty much just a dead grass color with a touch of lite green here and there and as I said this one will be used differently. Thanks for the help!!
Pat <>
USA - Monday, September 28, 1998 at 12:59:55 (EDT) 
Pat: I'll let Gooch or Rick give you the Correct Answer. I'll just toss in my two cents worth for grins. If you aren't going to actually cralw a lot, don't bother with the canvas. Then again, if you crawl at all, Just as Basso about his elbows. I know were beat all to heck with out the extra padding.

LeMay: Give Bob G. a call (email me if you do not have his number). He had at least a case of GM2 (175 grain) that he was thinking about moving. Boy needs money. Are you and Herrig coming to the W Va IDPA Championship or next weekends Tactical Hangun Course? Should be a blast. Shot - OVER!
Scott <>
Spidertown, arracniphobia Webworld - Monday, September 28, 1998 at 14:03:49 (EDT) 

Joe: Did the same thing. Bought the wrong loading equipment by bells and whistles. When it came down to ugly and hand held always beats large and battery operated.

I surprised we are now talking about sexual endeavors on this site. I'm not sure how this ties to better scouting or shooting.
tom <>
Fr, Va USA - Monday, September 28, 1998 at 14:17:18 (EDT) 

Tom: What? Endeavors? With this page's stated purpose in mind, holding hard and squeezing may be the only permissable action to take.


Mr. Bain <>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Monday, September 28, 1998 at 15:24:23 (EDT) 

I'm Warrent Officer Grant Treger the chief sniper instructor at the combat training centre in Canada. For the last couple of years I have been working on a number of different sniper related projects here in Canada. One that I'm trying very hard to get off the ground is a man tracking course. We have done the required mountain of paper work including budgeting, but I'm still having a problems selling the course to the powers to be. I have gone around the training centre and come up with a number of reasons why this a required skill for a military sniper but still we are having trouble selling the idea. What I'm asking is that if there is anyone out there with an incident that has happened to them were a tracker proved to be of great assistance or saved lives please get intouch with me by E-mail or relate your event by these means. Any E-mail sent to me will be handled in a very confidential manner. Anyones help in this matter would be greatly appreciated.
Warrent Officer Grant Treger <>
Gagetown , NB Canada - Monday, September 28, 1998 at 16:05:31 (EDT) 
Does anyone know who sells Kowa spotting scopes? I have been checking the local area as well as the internet and I can't find any dealers.
Any help would be appreciated.

Mike <>
Coventry, RI USA - Monday, September 28, 1998 at 17:56:41 (EDT) 

Mike you should try at Creedmoore Sports, I think they sold some of those before, they might still have them.
website at
ohio USA - Monday, September 28, 1998 at 18:16:05 (EDT) 
I am thinkning about buying a rifle and I am new to the field. I am looking at a Remington 700 P or one of Robar's systems. There is a tremendous price difference between the two and their advertised decriptions are similar in the area of accuracy. Is there much of a difference in the MOA? Can someone give me some free advice on these issues. Can you also touch on the area of new versus used, because I am leaning towards a new rifle (my wife does not know I am thinking about buying another gun at all)
Trevor (
Trevor <>
Richland , Indiana USA - Monday, September 28, 1998 at 19:00:16 (EDT) 
An open letter to all my "buddies" from SMTC:


Ifound them,their mine ...all mine.If it wasn't for Demetre
and me having the silver tongues and talking to them, youse
guys would still be eating burrito's at 7-11 with yourface paint on. Now when I go back there they better be recptive to me,or Uncle Nunzio WILL be talking to you..nuf said

Basso and me may be teaming up for the June course,
Ithink my partner might not make it that week,(probably

Uncle Nunzio's Newphew <>
New Yawk USA - Monday, September 28, 1998 at 20:24:44 (EDT) 

Just a guy who loves to shoot accurately...
Darren <>
San Francisco, CA USA - Monday, September 28, 1998 at 20:47:54 (EDT) 
Scott, I'll see you on Friday. Tell Mr. Bain he can get hair plugs. And if any of you want to shoot a real weapon, I'll let you shoot Chandler #104. You guys saw how it shot... LaMay, I found a pair of black panties in the parking lot of the Candledick inn. Scott, what is URL?
And I taught Rod how to camo guns. Bend over boys, I'm back. I have to go back Storm Mountain and show Scott how to use a pistol. NWO for life.
dan bassogdbas <gdbas>
Pawling, New York USA - Monday, September 28, 1998 at 21:14:24 (EDT) 
Dan:It's about time you showed up!If you want people to see
how that Chandler shoots then you better let me get behind it. Remember who shot the woodchuck with it!

Uncle Nunzio's Newphew <rempss>
New Yawk USA - Monday, September 28, 1998 at 21:32:58 (EDT) 

Scott, in reference to you question about the Chandler - it is without a doubt probably the best built, thought out 308 weapon system on the market today. It is painstaking constucted. Everything about the weapon system is hand crafted and strong as an oak tree.

Norman Chandler is definitely the gun builder for me. The clip sloltted one piece scope mount, is incredible! Rip the barreled action out of the stock and you will see deveron titanium bedding and it is rock solid. I compared it to Texas Bricade Army M40A1 and the diffenece is day and night. Not to say that Mike's gun isn't good, because my M40A2 300 win mag is being deliverd next week from Michael. I'll have the Chandler this weekend at Rod's and I'll let you shoot it if you want. Note of interest: take a Remington PSS 308 out of the box, put a real scope on it, take it to the range, and shoot it. And you will be pleasantly surprised. P.S. I love big strong handsome men!! See you Friday,

Dan Basso <gdbas>
Pawling, NY USA - Monday, September 28, 1998 at 21:38:36 (EDT) 

Gooch - You mean the C-130s are good? Usually we use Contract Air assets but they got called away on a better contract. Why, What's your budget?

Scott - I hate to bring this up, buuut at SOTIC we teach handloading of special rounds. We then have the students handload some 168s to our own specs and let them shot, at 200 meters, a 10 round group of M852, 10 round group of one handload, and a 10 round group of another handload. Just so they can see the difference. Somewhat of an eye opener.

Pat - Leave the blankity blank canvas off of the ghillie. It is a waste of material. If you are in an area that will require crawling then use elbow and knee pads. That canvas will over heat you, make noise that any ground animal can hear, to include deaf old farts like myself. Use an old field jacket with the liner cut out. That materail is tough enough for most crawls, excluding shale rock and the like. Seriously, with canvas sewn on the front, when you walk or crawl on all fours the noise and discomfort is a real distractor. If you want to use canvas, use a canvas of lighter weight than the sea bag (I am ASS-uming that the sea bag material is similar to the duffel bag material). Find an old GP medium tent and attack with a pair of scissors.

Chief Treger - We have taught tracking and counter tracking, visual and dog, at SOTIC from the beginning. This is an important skill. While you won't track anyone, you do need to know how to track and how tracker teams function in order to counter them. I have had some very disquiteing times with trackers on my back trail. It is a potential mission ender, not to mention life. There is no joy in Mudville when you find yourself surronded by little individuals whose joy in life is ending yours. Each time that this had occured was because we couldn't shake a tracker team that became two, that became three, well you get the picture. Push HARD for that skill. Throwing off dogs is full of myths and mis-information, ie CS powder actually allows a dog to smell better, not throw him off of you. Running into swamps usually helps a tracker not throw him off. Contact me by email if you think I can help in your noble quest for better and more complete training.

Well Scott, guess I got carried away again. Sorry man!
Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Monday, September 28, 1998 at 22:43:45 (EDT) 

Basso (non-performo): Hair plugs? My testosterone is used elsewhere, certainly not for hair production, if you know what I mean, you hairy M----- F-----.

Al: Tried you on the land-line. Who was the female? I wanna hear this one.

Basso (again): Ryan and I were at "Mystere" by Cirque du Soleil in Vegas on Friday. We were certain that you were one of the two muscle-bound "males" doing an acrobatic duet. Talk about good lookin' "mens!" They wouldn't let us back into your dressing room. You b----! Oh, and while the Chandlers make a good rifle, Webber's got them beat! Armament Technology, baaaaybeeeee!!!

Sarge: Hope it works out, man. Best of luck. See you at A.S.A.'s White Comet in March? Hope so, my friend.

Torsten: Bist Du zurueck, oder? Schreib mal, wenn Du Zeit hast.

Bain out.

Mr. Bain <>
Anytime, Anywhere, as long as Danny Boy's there USA - Monday, September 28, 1998 at 23:10:21 (EDT) 

Before you guys get all puffed up with what rifle is the best all over again, remember who shot the slag pile in that high wind when none of you pups could. It's the man, not the machine.

Looking forward to seeing some of you all this weekend, even you Danny Boy

P.S.: Basso, get yourself a new bi-pod will ya.

Hoist Me, Hoist Me!!!
Rod Ryan <>
Elk Where?, WV USA - Tuesday, September 29, 1998 at 00:27:22 (EDT) 

Hey guys.Thought I would ask a question and perhaps throw in my .02 Do you use/carry any type of support for the non firing hand for prone supported? I rarely come across this in any discussions. I know some of you military types have some information on this in your manuals but don't know if the LE community uses it. Personally I like a OD sock filled to the ankle with sand, knotted or sown shut. It makes a portable/stable butt rest (one that can fairly easily be made up on the spot) and with slight opening or closing of the fist make elevation adjustments. Or is this too elementary for discussion?
Bill Mohr <>
Utica, Ny USA - Tuesday, September 29, 1998 at 00:33:18 (EDT) 
Does anyone know if Norm Chandler or Iron Brigade Armory has a website ... If not how can I contact them ... Also if anyone has a Chandler could they contact me via email ... Thanks in advance ...
Sam Cushway III <>
Michigan City, IN USA - Tuesday, September 29, 1998 at 01:38:02 (EDT) 
Ok here it goes,
I own and love a new stock Remington PSSwith a Leupold 3.5-10 X 50mm mil-dot scope. It's box stock and shoots
just under an inch moa..

I also tend to believe everything I read.... and plan having my PSS done in the same fashion as Mr. POWERS did to his PSS in the recent TS article. New chamber, truing up the action, throat, bedding etc.....

I also just bought my first reloading press and here's my tentative plan:

Tailor the rifle to the Federal 168gr match round and then attempt to match that load on the reloading bench. I think The throat thing and the crown are the big thing.

I am not much of a tinkerer and doubt I will become a total reload freak who tries a million combinations to eek out another .05 inches in my groups. . I also know reloading is not as easy as pouring conrete and I really don't have anybody who can teach me the finer points.

Please tell me if this is sound thinking or if I am heading down a bad path. How easy will it be to match the Federal Match load? What kind of accuracy can a guy expect with the match load in a stcok gun that has been tuned? up..

All opinions will be appreciated and Why didn't I take up a cheap hobby like say collectiing Corvettes or something.

P.S. I also own a Savage 112 BVSS in .223 and I love it just as much as my Remington. So call me a Mug- Wump on that issue. :-) :-)
Shawn McNally <>
Page, AZ USA - Tuesday, September 29, 1998 at 01:56:43 (EDT) 

Rich - I have talked with shooters who own the MWG bases and rings. They prefer them over the Mk4's. I called MWG about aquiring a set for my Savage and the base runs $98 and the rings are $130. This was considerably cheaper than the Mk4 rings and base.

Keep them goin' downrange
Brent "Swede"
Brent <>
Shreveport, Louisiana USA - Tuesday, September 29, 1998 at 03:06:47 (EDT) 

Mike: Kowa Scopes can be pruchased from any supplier who deals in high power competition gear. To name a few:
Creedmore Sports
Champions Choice
Champions Shooters Supply

You might also check out any yuppie oriented outlet that caters to bird watchers. Kowa is one of the leading optics for these folks.

LeMay: If you can not get the Fed GM2 form the source I quoted, Try HopLite. They charge $309 per case.
Scott <>
USA - Tuesday, September 29, 1998 at 08:16:01 (EDT) 

Bain: I have seen where all that extra testosterone goes. Big feet. But that's about it....

Brent: The prices you qoute for the MGW set is exactly what a guy can expect to pay(full retail)for the Mk4 set. If they are paying more, they aren't looking around enough. In fact, You can currently pruchase a complete Mk4 set from Premier Reticle for about $190. If anyone is about to drop this kind of cash, I urge you to wait about two weeks. At that point I will have a review out on the Armament Technology base and ring set. They retail at a higher price, but the quality is worth it.

Dan: Buddy, as far as this weekend goes, prepare to be humiliated! And I'll do it with a cheap-ass Tanfoglio TA-90 (Grandpa to the EAA Witness)!!! Hee hee. Seriously though, give us a review on that scope mount system. Inlcude the price if you can. The Mk4 system is good, but these semi-custom mounts are far superior and everyone here want's info on them!

Rick: Yeah, I knew this about handloading with in the military, but I still wouldn't think those loads would actually make it into combat (do they?), unless officially built through a major armory such as Lake City. They definitely would not be used in terms of law enforcement! That would constitude a defense Lawyers Wet Dream. So my question then is as follows; once you have shown just how well a handload can improve performance, are these loads by and large used real world or just for competition? My point in the preceding post was that a true test of accuracy for a rifle intended for actual use (combat or police) is that it has to be able to handle the provided factory load, be that load M852, M118LR, Fed GM, GM2 or Win Match - whatever. All these guys talk about how accurate their favorite rig is, but most are refering to finely tuned handloads. When you ask how the performance is with a factory match load, one likely to be issued for actual use, things can get real quite. I still think a sniper rifle, one that may see actual use, must be able to handle department provided ammo. A PSS or Savage/Winchester/Browning/Ruger/et cetera, that can not hold .75 moa or better with for example, Federal GM or equivelent, is junk in terms of tactical shooting.

Rick, am I off base on this or not?? I figured that the legal issues would pretty much limit the user to factory, at least for actual sniper operations. Using this premise, I have come to the conlcusion - mostly to get this argument going, :-) - that all this wasted talk on which rifle is best is a crock because most of the data is being based on handload results. It is an apples to oranges debate. If a rig can shoot .25 moa with a good handload, but the sniper has to use factory in the field and this same rig will only do 1.2 moa with it, his rifle is actually shit for his intended purpose. Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated!

By the way Rick, you can feel free to take up as much space as needed to provide answers to questions you choose to reply to. If the reply gets to large, we'll just make an article out of it and post it in the Commentary section!
Scott <>
USA - Tuesday, September 29, 1998 at 08:55:38 (EDT) 

AL your waitress? Leave them alone, no way!! You can trust me and Rae with your life but not with your money or your waitress.

Basso the black panties in the parking lot of the candlewick must of fallen off her ankle hanging out of the blue huey F150. Theirs not to much room in the front for F******.

Bain two muscle-bound males in a dressing room I dont think I have to go much further then that or were all going to stay farr away from you.

Basso hope fully by June Rae and I will have our Armament techology rifles in 338 lapula and we see how they work.

Does eney one out their know where to get a good night vision scope for my M-14. LeMay OUT
LeMay <>
Back Woods, MICHIGAN USA - Tuesday, September 29, 1998 at 09:18:44 (EDT) 

Bill: You've got it. The sock with sand, lentil beans, polishing media, etc. is the way to go.

SMTC Grads: And didn't Rod make that shot with only one of the legs on the bipod extended?

Gooch: Getting back to the 168 gr. BTHP MatchKing, isn't it true that the bullet's 11 degree boat tail angle is a factor in the bullet's instability at transsonic speeds? I had thought that 9 degrees was preferrable with 7 being optimal, but unobtainable in mass production.


Mr. Bain <>
Hoisting away, in the USA - Tuesday, September 29, 1998 at 10:59:47 (EDT) 


Thanks for the info on the Ghillie suit I wasn't looking forward to putting canvas on it anyway!! On the reload vs. factory issue, I wish I could afford to shoot factory match but as much as I shoot I would have to stop eating!! I do agree with what your saying though and have gone as far as to taylor loads to a certain "factory" load so I could still shoot a lot and not have to buy factory, but would be on the mark with factory loads on all my data. My OLD 308 loved the M-852 LC Match and shot it as good as any hand load I had, go figure!!

Jeff A.
Where you been buddy?? I hope your out ringing out that 260 REM so you can send me all your data for loads(HA)
Pat <>
USA - Tuesday, September 29, 1998 at 11:08:18 (EDT) 

Mr. Bulllet - On the subject of reinforcing the front of a ghillie suit, all I can say is that I've had ghillies with reinforcement and without it. It really depends what you are doing with it.

When I first started building ghillies hardly anyone put stuff on the front. But back in those days (1980 or so) our BDU's were made of thin ripstop cotton without the extra layer on the knees and elbows that we have now. After 5-6 school stalks the things were a mess. Most school stalks require the students to do a lot of crawling (at least at the schools I worked at/went through). This resulted in a lot of students going to the canvas. (This ended up with snipers schools being real unpopular with the motor transport types. Students were doing midnight raids on the duece and a half canvas tops!) Now with the BDU's having reinforced knees and elbows it may be redundent.

BUT! If I was building a ghillie to varmit hunt in or to use as a cop I would go ahead and insert the padding into the BDU knee/elbow reinforcement. This is because in these two instances you will not need to hump as much shit as an infantry guy on extended operations and can afford a little more bulk and roof tops, gravel driveways, rocks etc. can be a pain. Use thin padding such as the vinyl car roof padding I have talked about before. I would then have the bottom jacket pockets moved to the side and the top pockets moved to the shoulders for accessability while prone then have codura nylon sewn over the front of the pants/top and elbows. I like the codura because it is much more durable, slicker and dries faster than canvas. It can also be found in camo patterns that match the BDU material.

You guys that went to the last SMTC courses with Mr. Bain sound like some real animals. Sounds like you had way too much energy at night to be partying with such intensity. Maybe Rod should think about a night land nav course or something.

Well I'm off to see the wizard,

Gooch out.
gooch <>
Sherwood, AR USA - Tuesday, September 29, 1998 at 11:17:56 (EDT) 

Gooch! Rod DID give them a night land nav problem. And yes, they were animals. The neat thing though was that for all the horsing around, when it came time to get behind the rifle, these guys kicked ass (for the most part). They were hung over, tired, wore out, and could still do the deed. Amazing.

Worse, they were all MY AGE. We have no right to get away with this stuff over 30!!! guess no one told us we were too old for this Sh*t!

Major Kudo's to Rod. Yeah, he made that 600++ yard shot from a malfunctioning Bipod (only one leg would work - the other was stuck), in a lot of wind! He has not let me live it down either.
Scott <>
USA - Tuesday, September 29, 1998 at 11:35:54 (EDT) 

The Bainster - Don't be asking me those damn technical questions like that! Boattail angle, smoattail angle its going back subsonic and gets knocked awry is all I know! Let's see...I don't know if chicken bones can help this one or not.

gooch <>
Sherwood, AR USA - Tuesday, September 29, 1998 at 13:33:13 (EDT) 

A while back, D. West wrote: "And is this right? When slope doping, it does NOT matter what range your scope is set at. I got this out of Plaster's ULTIMATE SNIPER, but want to make sure that this is right before making charts."

You must be reading a different copy than mine. My copy of the book has about a half-dozen pages on slope doping, including charts and such, spelled out as one would expect. There is at least as much info in TUS as there is in the Lau/Gooch book, although without the useful scenarios at the back of The Military & Police Sniper. Both cover the info well. You may want to re-read the appropriate section of TUS.

Dave <>
San Jose, CA USA - Tuesday, September 29, 1998 at 15:04:34 (EDT) 


I think I dropped the ball on you somewhere. Seeing Terry's post on the Musgrave I remember you asking about it, but don't remember answering you - my apologies. Do I take it you were referring to the single-shot Palma Musgrave rifles, or the normal, run-of-the-mill hunting rifles? Or custom rifles built by Ben Musgrave? Former owner of Musgrave in Bloemfontein, then sold out to Armscor, he stayed on as gunsmith, now Musgrave moved to Pretoria under the Vektor name. If you're looking for the hunting rifles, I can easily get you a price - the others might take a bit longer, but not too much.

Sarge, about your 30-06. Don't I remember you saying that you got quite acceptable groups with your 180gr loads? Do you still? If you do, nothing's wrong with the rifle, just the load/bullet/both. I'd suggest, if you haven't done that yet, to test fire some of those acceptable 180gr loads to see if something didn't go bust somewhere. What's your twist again? Might that also not affect you? I'm out of options for now.


Marius Ferreira <>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Tuesday, September 29, 1998 at 15:16:25 (EDT) 

On the question over the non-firing hand support. Sand is pretty heavy, I prefer to use plastic beads. You can get these at Walmart in the crafts section near the doll making supplies. A couple of bucks gets you enough to make two happy socks. Fill a ziplock bag with enough to make you happy, put a couple of wraps of duct tape around it for sturdyness and put it in the sock. I'ts lighter than the sand and makes a good weapon to bash your observer with when he's off on the wind. You can also put red beans and rice in it just in case you are forced into a survival situation. (Seriously!)

Can you guys tell I've got the day off with nothing better to do than veg in front of the computer?

Storm mountain fans. I hear that Rod is going to bring some former Jarhead up to help with the sniper training! I don't know...he'll probably catch all of you on the stalks. Doesn't sound good. I hear he's an old shit though. Probably fall asleep on the OP.

Gooch out.
Gooch <>
Sherwood, AR USA - Tuesday, September 29, 1998 at 15:22:18 (EDT) 

Back to field craft.

Gooch or Rick or Rod, what have you found to be the most useful method of carrying a ghillie, outside of stuffing it in a ruck? I have seen some guys cut out the sides of a butt pack and stuff it in there, but this left tell tails hanging down the back. I try to wrap mine into itself and carry it below a butt pack on the provided straps but you still get the tell tails if not carefull. Fixing it high up on an LBE has the same problem. Maybe an O.D. stuff sack so it looks like a sleeping bag from a distance? If you do not need a ruck for the mission, what good alternatives have you found? I ask this question as I saw a few student actually WEAR their ghillies for the entire portion of a stalk! Talk about masocitic tendencies!
Scott <xring>
USA - Tuesday, September 29, 1998 at 15:26:53 (EDT) 

Gooch: Are you saying SMTC's standard's have slipped. Hell, the guy better be qualified on the MP5, M9, M16, etc., have 20 years of experience under his belt, and have been published in at least one book on sniping. Oh, that's right, he is. Hmmm, who could it be?

Scott: SSG Olsen from Benning uses a waterproofed stuff-sack, according to the latest TS.


Mr. Bain <>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Tuesday, September 29, 1998 at 16:06:05 (EDT) 

Gooch: On using thin vinyl padding for the knees and elbows...
My neighbor caught me (not enough room to set out the PEWS) cutting the landau top of his car into pieces for my BDUs and threatened to call the cops unless I paid his insurance deductible. This, even after I told him you suggested I do it (you know, for more comfortable stalks). Then, he takes the insurance settlement and buys a new rifle. Go figure. He's such a jerk, he won't even let me shoot it. That's ok though because it's not a Savage. As far a using canvas, I've got this other neighbor with a sailboat he parks in his yard...
Paul J. Headlee <>
Ogden, KS USA - Tuesday, September 29, 1998 at 16:06:58 (EDT) 
Thanks for the info on the ghillie. I was putting one togeather for Shawn. I padded the knees and the elbows with a piece of a ground mat. I put the basic suit togeather for him and when he gets to school he can modify it to better fit his needs. His first drill is next weekend, he sounds excited about it, Maj. Brewers outfit seems like a great bunch of guys. Oh to be young again...Say Gooch do they have a parents day where I could go down an play with all the "Neat" stuff(HA).
Pat <>
USA - Tuesday, September 29, 1998 at 16:07:50 (EDT) 
I guess it's out of the bag now, so here it goes.

Mr. Kent Gooch has come to an agreement with Storm Mountain Training Center and will be conducting Scout/Sniper, Long Range Rifle and Carbine courses starting in the Spring of 1999. He will also be overhauling the course content to install the most up to date sniper training program in this industry.

For those of you wishing more info on Mr. Gooch you may contact me just about 24 hrs a day at SMTC.

Watch out snipers from class 98-4, he will bust your butt in June.

Basso you gotta come through for the second time just to get HOISTED.

No kidding folks, if you want a slot in this years courses you better call soon. The 99 schedule is out and filling.
Rod Ryan <>
Elk Garden, WV USA - Tuesday, September 29, 1998 at 19:13:13 (EDT) 

Chief Traegor:

Rick said it all and said it exactly. I am merely corroborating his observations from precisely the same frame of reference. Sniping and tracking are deeply integrated to the extent that the idea of questioning their relationship never even dawned on me. As an operational sniper, I have tracked potential quarry and the antitracking is the MOST important aspect of the skill. I've had Montagnard trackers I could not shake and ended up in all out CQB firefights before extraction. I'm here because I'm just damn lucky, not because I'm good.
James R. Jarrett <>
Cans Ass, USA - Tuesday, September 29, 1998 at 19:39:23 (EDT) 

Sarge, I was having fits getting a Savage to shoot well until a fellow enthusiast clued me in on how bitchy the .223 is on the twist rate/bullet length phenomenon. Have you done the math regarding that issue? Once I did, that little mother amazed me. I'm not sure of the appropriate numbers re your rifle, but it might be worth a look.
All that and at least two other posts without a crack about Savages. Are you sure the nut on the buttstock is able to shoot tighter than 2" ? Best of luck and I hope your sense of humor is intact.
Jim Liles <>
Portland, Or. USA - Tuesday, September 29, 1998 at 21:04:37 (EDT) 
My gunsmith has commented on type of bullet to type of crowning. He said that a boattail should be used with a dish type crowning(remington). And that a straight cut bullet should be used with a straight cut crown(Savage). He said that it should give someone maximum performance from each if used this way. I was wondering if anyone else has heard of this. Thanks
Pickett <>
Hills of , TN USA - Tuesday, September 29, 1998 at 22:42:08 (EDT) 
SMTC Gang:June 14-20 make no plans other than to be at Storm
Mountain for advanced C.S. Rod has appointed me to round up all you guys, heres how it looks so far:
team dallas
dave lick and d-man
al and al (team n.y.)
come on guys let me add your names, this will be the most fun you can have with your pants on! Not to mention all the trigger time and candlewyck fun to be had.

LeMay and Herig:I would'nt be surprised if youse showed up
with a plasma cannon or a particle beam weapons system.

Mr.Bain: re:the woman that answered the phone at my house,
Idon't know ,it could have been any one of my honey's..
I'm just a chick magnet!

Mr. Gooch: looking foward to meeting you.

Danny boy: you better be there in June.

Uncle Nunzio's Newphew <>
New Yawk USA - Tuesday, September 29, 1998 at 22:46:05 (EDT) 

Bean Bags - We ban them at SOTIC. The reason is that many new shooters will not hang onto the weapon properly when they first start out when the front and the rear of the weapon is fully supported. They are afraid of disturbing the pretty sight picture. We give them an old NRA style shooting glove. This gives them the same support but encourages holding onto the weapon better. Without the proper tension on the weapon, it is subject to free recoil and that destroys groups. By using the glove tension and support are maintained and the elevation can still be adjusted through squeezing of the hand. Try it, you guys may find it better than the glove and it permits movement with the glove on the hand and you are not trying to drag a 5 pound bag of sand around. Gooch, watch the rice, if it gets wet you will have one heck of a mess on your hands!

Scott - You are right about the factory stuff. First the LEA tactical shooter has the civil lawyer on their backs. Second the military has the Conventions lawyer on their backs. (Sorry Mr. Bain, no offense meant ;-)). There is another area that we'll stay away from. You are 100% right about the tactical or military SWS that won't shoot factory. It is a club. Not to be used in the real world of tactical missions. It can, however, kick a** on the range. As long as the two functions are not confused, no problem.

James - You and I must have had the same suckers chasing us. I hate chasing grenades out of an encirclement. SIWs hurt just as bad as bad guy wounds!!

Ghillie Suit carry - Compressed stuff sacks work the best for the full Ghillie. For the net drape I just stuff it in my pocket and bring it out when I need it.

Hold hard guys and I've got to get to SMTC. I can't stand it no more! Rod, can an old fart like myself survive there?

Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Tuesday, September 29, 1998 at 23:02:37 (EDT) 

Where are the proof readers!!! That sentence that makes even less sense than normal should have stated to try it, that it may work better for you than the bag and the the glove is easier to move around with on your hand. What ever. Been a long day guys with the students in the woods last night and then a first light hit on a "Terrorist Camp".

Sorry guys, guess I'm getting punchy.
Rick <>
Fayetteville, NC USA - Tuesday, September 29, 1998 at 23:10:37 (EDT) 

SMTC in '99: Hey, I wanna go too. Bob Hodge, you interested in the second week (I assume that you've got a partner for the first week)? We'll fly out to DC, maybe Team NY will pick us up at Dulles.

Sign me up!


Mr. Bain <>
Anytime, especially in June of '99 USA - Tuesday, September 29, 1998 at 23:26:30 (EDT) 

I say we HOIST a toast to Gooch and Ryan! Ban [sic] du Soleil's got nothing on them.

Mr. Bain <>
Anytime, Anywhere USA - Tuesday, September 29, 1998 at 23:53:14 (EDT) 

Well guys I'm living proof that even a blind squirrel can find a nut every now and then.

Thanks to all of you guys that spread the word to Rod Ryan that an old Jarhead was looking for a job. It is amazing how this internet thing has effected us all huh?

Without a lot of violin playing and shit I would like to thank the SC council for letting me rant and rave on this thing. There are a lot of guys out there like me who would love to teach this stuff as a civilian and I'm lucky as hell to have run across SC. Mr. Bain turned me on to SMTC while we were at the D&L shoot. If it hadn't been for him and Andy Weber Rod Ryan probably wouldn't have ever heard of me.

I'll just do this one time SC council. And I'll not turn this into a SMTC web page. You guys come to Storm Mountain you won't be dissapointed. There are a lot of places to learn rifle, pistol and precision rifle shooting out there and most of them do a good job but I'm going to work with Rod to make Storm Mountain the place for rifle shooting. Not by a huge ego but with a lot of work.

Thanks everybody.

Gooch out.
gooch <>
Sherwood, AR USA - Wednesday, September 30, 1998 at 00:18:27 (EDT) 

To Marius:
Marius, when you get time could you please find the price on one of the hunting models of the Musgrave. No hurry on this, I won't have the money for a while, but I would like to eventually get one of these rifles.
Thank you !!!
USA - Wednesday, September 30, 1998 at 01:11:10 (EDT) 
Storm Mountain seems to be the place to go. How come no one mentions "Gunsite" or "Thunder Ranch"? Aren't these schools any good?

D. West:
I haven't heard from you in a few days, are you still interested in a trip to the range on Friday morning and/or do you want directions on how to get to that gunshow this Sunday?
USA - Wednesday, September 30, 1998 at 01:24:24 (EDT) 

Thanks to all who assisted me in locating the Kowa spotting scopes. I was able to find a Kowa TS-612 for $250. It's the lowest price so far (eyepiece not included).
Thanks again.
Mike <>
Coventry, RI USA - Wednesday, September 30, 1998 at 01:34:12 (EDT) 
I have taken every Police Sniper Class I have been able to find in Calif. over the past fifteen years, and they all lack Stalking. Does anyone know of a class on Stalking by someone who is not a phony in Central Calif.
Calif USA - Wednesday, September 30, 1998 at 02:05:35 (EDT) 
To those at Sniper Country I would like to express my gratitude for developing and maintaining such a wonderful site. I have never seen a better way to exchange thoughts and information. I should have gotten online much sooner.
For Gooch: Glad to see that there is still a way to reach you now that you've left the MTU. It would appear that no moss grows on your rucksack. Storm Mountain will benefit from your experience. And those pictures in Mike Lau's new book! Wow. Sexy! So, does all that blatant sucking up get my packet in the mail? Send your Storm Mountain POI and costs with it if you can. I ran into your replacement at the MAC region shoot last weekend and was happy to see that they had selected such a qualified individual. I've got three students who can't wait for February to come around. Good to talk to you.
For Scott: I've found that the issue NBC bag is a great way to carry your ghillie. It's made of heavy, camo cordura with sturdy compression straps that allow you to really shrink the load. It appears to be a sleeping bag attached to the bottom of your ruck, or if you really cinch it down, it will pass for a buttpack on your LBE. Replace the velcro with a good zipper. I have not seen them in surplus stores yet, but a statement of charges on a "lost" one is 20-30 bucks.
For everyone: I have always thought that it was better to overestimate the size of a target in 1/10s of a mil than to underestimate. Let's face it; at 700m+ a 1/10 mil error can result in a miss on various sized targets. More than once (and recently), I have overshot and had the round's impact obscured by the target, the terrain, or the vegetation. Without an impact signature to correct from, the follow-up shot can be a real swag. Now, I realize that you can't always rely on even having an impact signature, but if there is one it is better to have it visible in front of the target. This makes sense to me. What does everyone else think? Thanks for your time.
Kevin <>
Albany, Oregon USA - Wednesday, September 30, 1998 at 03:31:12 (EDT) 
To all.
Sniper support equipment.

Does anyone know of the existence of an active distraction
device for tactical employment by snipers?
Darryl Todd <>
- Wednesday, September 30, 1998 at 03:41:01 (EDT) 

As far as everything is going, we're shooting! I don't know yet about the gun show, but I'll keep you posted.
My #*%@ing computer is acting up!!! If it keeps up like this, I'll furnish one target we're sure to hit!!! Hey, are you hearing about the Storm Mountain, spring 99 course? I'm getting gear together! This is my call.
Oh, B.T.W. Russ is going to just shit if you don't start leaving your E-mail adress.

Russ, WHERE ARE YOU?????

Mr. Bain, When you get the time, can you drop me a line about S.M.

Gooch, Congratulations!!!

Dave, OUCH!!!!

D. West <>
never changes, IL. USA - Wednesday, September 30, 1998 at 04:42:27 (EDT) 

Rick: "Can an old fart like you survive here", if your comming up, my note pad is ready. I'll sit my big butt down in the class room and take the course from you!!!

Scott: I concure with Kevin in ref to the ghillie, the new NBC bag is the way to go, all nice and tight and no target indicators hanging out your backside. It's basically a small compression sack with a few extra straps.

Kodiak: Gunsite and Thunder Ranch are both great places to train. The differance is that they teach rifle we teach sniper, real world sniper. You will get the marksamnship and tactics and fieldcraft here at SMTC. This is why we have included the sustainment weekends this year, we can't teach everything in two weeks and we want to give everything we have to the student, I don't belive in holding back lessons learned just so my instructor staff or myself can stay on top. Many of my students/friends can out shoot or out stalk me. This gives me a woody as I know they have understood and mastered the course content.

Mike M.: I'd like to get you out here but I belive Combative Concepts runs a program with stalking.

Bain: I'm waiting on my return phone call.

Gooch: You waist no time do you. Thanks for the intel dump on the SP's.

Danny Boy: I enjoyed our phone conversation last night and can't wait to be hoisted.

Keep you heels down!!!
Rod Ryan <>
Elk Garden, WV USA - Wednesday, September 30, 1998 at 09:22:08 (EDT) 

Guys and Gals, Sorry! Why? Well, I gave you some bad info. The Ring and Base set from Armament Technology is not going to be available here in the States. The good news is that you can purchase a very similiar design from Badger. The Ring and base set I saw from AT is the result of a collaberation between AT and Badger. The Rings in question are actually Badger Rings and are serial numbered. They are most excellent. I did not even need to lap the scope in as they were so perfectly matched once installed on the base. The Badger Tapered base is availible in the US and has a slightly different declination angle than the AT unit. This taper will give you 25 MOA. Does anyone have Badger's number? I would like to contact them ASAP. Better yet, if any of you out there have the poop on this set up, email me pronto.
Scott <>
USA - Wednesday, September 30, 1998 at 12:31:05 (EDT) 
To D. West:
OK, so we're on for Friday. I'll get to the range about 9:00 AM. I'll be the guy shooting near the maroon colored Toyota Supra. If you decide to bring your computer to shoot it let me know. I'll bring my computer and make it watch so it knows what will happen the next time it starts giving me trouble.
(Notice the e-mail address)

To Rod Ryan:
Thanks for pointing out the difference between your school and the others. Now that I'm clear on this your's is definitely what I'm interested in. I hope to make it there in the Spring.
Kodiak <>
USA - Wednesday, September 30, 1998 at 12:33:44 (EDT) 


Why wouldn't the dual dove tail rings and mounts work as well as the MK4s?? There is nothing to come loose on them, I understand that the MK4s have heavier rings with two sets of screws but the scope is still the most delicate part of the system. So how much is enough?? Other than the fack you could remove the scope and replace it easier but if this wasn't a concern wouldn't the dual dove tail work as well??

I tried to e.mail you to get some info on your schools but I keep getting it sent back, could you e.mail me with your info or send me a message and maybe I can get back to you that way. Thanks!!
Pat <>
USA - Wednesday, September 30, 1998 at 12:55:16 (EDT) 

One of our local surplus stores has the NBC bags, brand new, and they charge something between $10 and $20 for them as I recall. I agree that they are great bags, I use one as a stuff sack for my sleeping bag. If anyone wants one of these bags let me know and I'll see what I can do.

Gooch at SMTC? Oh, my poor wallet.

Dave <>
San Jose, CA USA - Wednesday, September 30, 1998 at 14:09:42 (EDT) 

To Torf:
I agree with you on the issue of a good side mount is the way to go for a true tactical rifle as long as the shooter takes advantage of the open space underneath the scope by having a useable set of iron sights as well. Could you give me a ballpark figure for a EAW sidemount for a 98 mauser in U.S. dollars? I just saw an add for some reproduction mounting systems for the German Sniper Rifles available from Sarco,inc ( Prices on these reproduction bases were as follows. High Turret $575, Long Side Rail $650, BNZ single claw $600 . Sounds a little pricey to me! I hope EAW can do better than that.
Steve <>
S.C.D.H., Ohio USA - Wednesday, September 30, 1998 at 18:16:48 (EDT)

Bain: damn if you aren't hard to say no to. I think I can swing that next year, even if it is a couple of time zones away. A mutual friend of ours has expressed an interest in this also. He mentioned it again today.
Keep your March open, we might have a weekend exercise down here then.

bob Hodge <>
out west, USA - Wednesday, September 30, 1998 at 23:37:59 (EDT)

Source :

Sniper Country Duty Roster
Third call-up has been charm for Hens’ Krizan
E3: Hands-On With Sniper Elite 4
'American Sniper': Former Navy SEAL Chris Kyle's alleged murderer to stand trial Wednesday
Trial comes for Marine accused of killing ‘American Sniper’
Projected World Cup 2016 roster: Team USA
Trial comes for Marine accused of killing 'American Sniper'
Trial comes for Marine accused of killing ‘American Sniper’
Trial comes for Marine accused of killing 'American Sniper'
Trial comes for Marine accused of killing ‘American Sniper’